To want routine, for my 4wk old ds2, who is awake 10pm-5am . AIBU to want to sleep at night ?

[Oblomov]

I don't know what to do ?
I feel like i have already tried most things.
Please anyone offer any advice ?

We are at breaking point.
We have been up all night. Till 5am.
When dh gave him to me, and said 'take him to our bed. i must sleep. i have to go to work.

I sobbed and sobbed yesterday night at about 10pm. i just don't know what to do with him. dh is concerned too.
ds1 said, 'i don't think it was a good idea to have a baby'. 'why' dh and i said, shocked. 'he cries all nught and keeps me awake' said ds.
quite frankly, i sit here this morning, feeling the same

This is ds2. ds1 is 4.10. I was spoilt with him, becasue after cs, and being in hospital for first week, he was all over the place when we got home for second week. sleepy. awake all night. but by end of second week, he totally flipped,and put himself in a routine that you could set yuor clock by.
I bf him at 6am,10am,2pm,6pm,10pm,2am.
He would bf for 20 minutes, burp immediately and I would be back in bed, asleep within 25 minutes.

So I was spolit. So thats why ds2 has come as such a shock.

He too was cs. jaundice, thick blood and low blood sugars. I was struggling with bf, so had to express before they would discharge me from hospital. then it turned out he was tongue tied. now been snipped. bf is not much better, despite going to clinics. they said it was a miracle I had managed it for this long. I have alot of milk,. so bf every time. then offer ebm.

it is tyring bf and pumping so often though.

He takes quite alot. i suppose it is demand feeding. but quite regularly throughout day. weight gain has been very good, says hv.

he is very sleepy. poohs are green, sometimes.
suggesting wind. maybe i should try infacol( been trying for a week) AND colief(used with ds1).
I have been expressing and throwing away the first 20ml of each breast, in order to get more hind milk into him, as recommended by over supply guides. that doesn't seem to have helped.

at 10pm he was still downstairs. dh said the only thing we haven't tried is formula. off i go to get some from our supplies.we try it for the first time, last night.

so between 10 and 12 he takes about 5-6 oz of formula. wide awake and chirpy.
I take him to bed at midnight. he continually feeds and winds, feeds and winds. at 3 or 4 am i have had enough.

I let him cry. and cry and cry. thinking 'tough love'. I can't do this holding him, co sleeping shit anymore. he needs to sort himselfout. and ds1 will have to get used to a bit of crying until he does.

then I take him back to his cot.
I wind. no burp. 25 mins i wind for. put down . leave room. he cries immed. i go back. wind him. burp. roots. I feed him. wind him, for 20 mins. no burp. put him down. cries. so it goes on.

at 5 am i leave him to cry and cry. dh comes. he has been in and out all night, to be fair.
he swaddles him and brings him to me, in our bed. dh downstairs.

i have cranial oestopath booked for tomoorow. ds1 had 2 sessions and i was not convinced, but am prepared to try anything.

am thnking that tough love is required. have fed him once thsi morning, but admittedly, not at 7am like GFord would like.

should i keep him awake and feed every 3 hrs. MAKE HIM

mind you, when nanny seaside and sil where here the other day keeping him awake and feding him lots, that made no difference, to the nightime.

during the night I opened up another formula and he had another 4oz of that. so he had 11oz throught he night.

I bf him this morning though. not formula.

but seriously we can't continue like this.
I need to change his body clock. I need to sleep, so that i can get up and do the school run , taking ds1 to school ( my sil has been doing this for me for 3 weeks, finishing this week)

dh and I are shattered. we did have a few nights of regualr sleep over the last couple of weeks. but for the last week, he has been awake ATLEAST 1am-4am every night. I give it and take him into my bed. ds on sofa bed. I don't want to co sleep though. I want my dh back. and I don't think I sleep that well anyway, when we co sleep. only doing it out of desperation.
I am at a loss as to what to try next.

All advice welcome.

"he can only manage to bf for about 4 minutes. most he has ever managed was 8."

Hi, you have had fab advice on the rest of the thread re co-sleeping etc. I just wanted to respond to the particular point about how long your baby feeds for. My DD was just the same - she fed for about five or ten minutes max at this age, never longer, and by the time she was a few months old, she never fed longer than five minutes. I breastfed her happily and successfully for 14 months. It honestly is fine. I would say that if your son is gaining weight, weeing and pooing, and otherwise happy (not counting inexplicable mysterious crying when fed/changed etc which seems to me just a natural hazard of having a v new baby) then you should not worry about how long he feeds for. By all means worry about the crying but I promise you it is perfectly okay for a baby only to feed for short times - some of them are just more efficient than others. My DD was a blooming nightmare at first. She obv had a v tiny stomach so needed feeding way more often than any of my friends' babies. Until she was about nine months old, she wanted feeding about once an hour. But she thrived and is fine and I am sure your little one will be too. Best of luck.

great post babbintot, must have taken ages to type!

Not read all the posts but if its not already been suggested, please try a cranial osteopath. I think they are miracle workers at making babies more settled, especially colicky ones. Even if he hasn't got colic, they are good for other problems too.

My DS3 (now 6 months) had green poo for a while. Don't worry too much about it, I did to no avail and everything worked itself out in the end.

You will get through this. Sleep is overrated, thats what I tell myself on the bad nights!!!

My DD was hard to settle. She was also tongue-tied. I got a Baby sooth pink noise cassette which settled her to sleep. Sorry I can't do links, but if you google Baby sooth pink noise you will find the web-site.

My only point was that not every baby suits little & often feeding & our experience was that this was the CAUSE of DD's colic!
The same way some prefer little & often, others may need a long time to digest milk!
The same goes for co-sleeping- some babies are just not suited to it & are SO high maintainance that Mum will not survive without resting without baby! Take it from someone who suffered heavily from PND- sometimes coping yourself is the best way to give your baby the love they need. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO COME FIRST to enable you to give baby your love!!!!

I advocate breastfeeding but not if it is making you this unhappy. Only you can decide what to do but I had the same problems with dd1 and started GF routines to the letter at 6wks, by 8wks she slept 2230-7am. With dd2 again still night feeding at 6mths, changed to ff and within weeks she slept through (besides teething problems) and we had put her into GF routines at 6mths.
So everyone can flame me, but I say FF as it stays in their tum longer so don't wake so frequently.
If you still want to bf then I say try expressing after the first morning feed to boost supply.
Try infacol before every feed starting at tea time.
Try giving the 3 attempt to feed rule, then rock the cot to get to sleep/ dummy if necessary, so long as LO goes to sleep. Seems like comfort not food he needs though.
Set a pattern of bath,boob, bed and the same routine into the cot.
i.e. always swaddle/sleeping bag/teddy/whatever iyswim.
I found patting tummy with one hand and rocking cot with the other worked while babe is swaddled. I used a dummy after the third feed attempt at bed time. I also said last chance to feed before the last one, so she learned that there would be no more until she had slept after about 10 days doing this. HTH

Karise I second your post and had PND with dd1 for the same reasons as the op describes- exhaustion. Unhappy mum = unhappy baby. Exhaustion can lead to PND and sleep deprivation can cause PND. Thats why it is used as a form of torture, without sleep people can start hallucinating and can be dangerous. How dangerous is it for a woman/man who has been awake all night to drive a car? Very. Yet we routinely expect to function during sleep deprivation with a newborn baby. She could be putting her family at risk being up all night and driving the following day.

I have only read half the replies so apologise if I repeat advice.

I have 3 dc's (3, 2 and 7mths) and have NEVER been up for more than an hour at a time in the night.

I like the baby whisperer but every baby has it's own routine. I suggest that you write everything down (pain I know but it will help). You can follow the EASY routine (Eat Activity Sleep YOU)

E- time your baby eats and how much or if BF record whether L or R or BOTH and how long
A- getting dressed etc
S- time baby went to sleep and how long for
YOU- get some time for yoursel while baby sleeps

Don't worry if you need to feed again before your baby sleeps. If you write everything down like this for a few days/week you will hopefully see a pattern emerging and you can start to predict when he might be tired- if you can pre-empt him becoming over tired he should settle more easily for daytime naps.

IF he is overtired at bedtime he is less likely to settle at night.
I have always let mine sleep as much as they want.

A dummy is a good idea and can really help- newborns need to suck (not feed) for 16 out of 24 hours.

TRY to relax and not force anything and it will probably get better.

And lastly, RE- the green poo- this COULD be a sign of milk allergy. Don't be alarmed it's fairly common and many babies outgrow it by 6 mths or so. My dd2 has this and I gave up dairy when she was 12 weeks- I was going mad with her crying- and within a week she was a different child! Dairy does pass through BM so if you cut it out it may help and it won't harm her to try but could make all the difference.

Hugs xxx

Oh and my ds (my eldest and easiest baby!) never fed for more than 5 minutes if that- I couldn't understand why everything I had read said 45 mins etc for feeding and he was done so quickly. However he was BF till 6 mths, gained weight and was very healthy. Once he was weaned he dropped most of his milk feeds very quickly.

Oblomov - roughly where are you in the country? North, South, East, West?

I would love to come and give you a hand, even if it's just a case of taking ds2 out for a few hours in the day so you can catch a nap.

Tiktok talks sense as always.

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Oblomov really hope you're getting some rest now, and you've had loads of suggestions...

Babbintot - brilliant post - really good ideas.

I definitely second having a big plate of nice bits of food next to the bed!! Also I sometimes found making the night 'psychologically shorter' ie staying up late worked in a weird way for me too.

BTW re expressing off foremilk - I had oversupply when dd2 was about 5-6 weeks, with a lot of green poo and unsettled behaviour, and lots of weight gain.

I used to hand express for a bit before some feeds - I could see watery 'foremilk' coming out and could see the milk getting 'creamier'. This is very different IMHO to regularly pumping off exactly 20ml. The oversupply with me took about a week to settle down.

Dd2 has never fed for more than 5 minutes a side during the day, since she was born (though does 10-15 min at night)- at nearly 5 months, we're down to about 1 min sometimes ...so don't worry about that!

Oblomov - please don't be worried about asking people for help as well -actual useful practical help i mean - when people ask what to get for the baby ask them to make you some food for the freezer etc.

Am sure you've helped enough people out to be entitled to some support back and people are happy to do it - in fact it gives them a sense of enormous wellbeing

when our dd was that age my dh would walk up and down with her, she would fall asleep then as soon she was put down wake up again but as everyone has said it wont last - we decided between us how long we would leave it between feeds in the night (I think it was two hours) so I wasnt constantly feeding and you could try this on fri and sat nights as others have suggested so that you get some sleep.

I would also second the battery operated swing if you can borrow one - maybe someone on here near to you has got one to lend? and the white noise sometimes works as well.

I second side carring! We had dd2 at the foot of the bed, I put her in with me to feed lying down and closed my eyes in the correct position i.e. defence of the baby arm over her head and knees bent under her to stop her being squashed/slipping down the bed. This was the only thing that got me sleep in the first few weeks and after some practice we could latch on without a light . She fell asleep after feeding and I put her back in the basket when I stirred again- so not full co-sleeping but nearly.
I was completely against it right until I tried it and never looked back.
DD1 was in her own room by 3wks .

Oblomov I'll text you tomorrow x x x x x x x

Can't offer anything more practical than what's in the previous posts but if it's any consolation whatsoever I will be thinking of you tonight. You are a complete star for working your way through this and it will get better!

Oblomov- I hope things feel loads better soon. Sorry it's so hard at th moment.

Right.
I am back. Refreshed
Much much better nights sleep.

Thank you to VS for her nice e-mail.
And CarGirl. You are a star. How come you always find my threads ? Where I have this amazing ability to melodramitically make everything sound like the world is just about to cave in ? I would love to meet for coffee. I have been o.k.'d to drive. So will pop round to you.

I am touched by everyones nice responses. Normally you do you ribbed, when you are attention seeking enough to start a AIBU thread. I think I have got off pretty lightly here. Is that becasue you all can see my 'fragile' mental state, that I am about to jack it all in and run off with John 'Jo Brand' Sargent, to Cuba, with his cuban heels ?

Well, maybe it was just luck. But I put ds in his cot post 6-7pm feed. Then at 8.30 dh and I went to bed.
I got up quite a few times in the night. Not sure how many. But he seemed alot more settled.
I gave him infacol AND colief before each feed. probably the poor love was so dosed up, he didn't have the energy to cry
No seriously, Mn has said that one is preventative, one to cure. Pharmacist said it was fone to use the two together.

I fed him at 9,10,possibly 12, 3,6. I think. I am not sure. Btu some of thsoe were exc bf. some bf and ebm. I used the dummy quite a bit. What a godsend. I have been cured of my dummy phobia/hatred.
Basically he did not cry. Well, a few cries. That I jumped up at. Winded him immed. Put dummy in adn went back to bed.

So I think we can consider this a success.

And I am taking on board ALL commnets.
Will respond to some, next.

One step at a time.
Tonight might not be quite so good.
But atleast we have had one semi-success.
So thanks alot everyone.

That's fab, if you can keep it up try exc breastfeeding as much as possibe, as long as you're not sore through his bad latch why not try. Just remember to look after yourself to keep your diabetes under control because I think that makes a difference to how much sleep you can go without IYSWIM.

Look forward to the coffee soon (and you can come and help me with my work - it's so long since I've done trial balance journals I'm a little bit freaked by it all )

so glad you are feeling more sprightly today

I feel your pain, we were in a similar situation with our little boy and so was a good friend of mine. We used to say that our babies were on New Zealand time (both kiwis living in England). The good news is that by six weeks both our babies were sleeping better at night. Not through the night or on routines but sleeping in good chunks and not being awake the whole night. Throw Gina Ford out of the window - she only works for some babies. Ds is so unroutiney and if I'd figured that out earlier I would have saved myself lots of stress and hours of my darling ds crying. Encourage him to sleep at night - as others have said give co-sleeping a go and whatever you do sleep when he naps - that stopped me from going mad.

1. Stop expressing now, this is for women who cannot be with their baby at feed times!Why feed him your milk thru a bottle, when you are there?
2. Stop throwing milk away, your baby needs it all!
3. Stop giving formula, you need to create a supply and demand with b/f, and f/f creates a false supply.
4. Feed on demand and when you know your breasts are empty and baby has had a good feed, slip a dummy in his mouth.
5. As someone else said, having the cot up against your bed, with the side off, so you can slide him across to feed, is great.

Lastly, stop doing anything else, just stay home and concentrate on you and baby. When baby sleeps in the day, get on the settee and you sleep too.

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SHIT SHIT SHIT.
I just lost my long long post of responding to everyones posts.
SHIT SHIT SHIT. will try and do it again.