To want routine, for my 4wk old ds2, who is awake 10pm-5am . AIBU to want to sleep at night ?

[Oblomov]

I don't know what to do ?
I feel like i have already tried most things.
Please anyone offer any advice ?

We are at breaking point.
We have been up all night. Till 5am.
When dh gave him to me, and said 'take him to our bed. i must sleep. i have to go to work.

I sobbed and sobbed yesterday night at about 10pm. i just don't know what to do with him. dh is concerned too.
ds1 said, 'i don't think it was a good idea to have a baby'. 'why' dh and i said, shocked. 'he cries all nught and keeps me awake' said ds.
quite frankly, i sit here this morning, feeling the same

This is ds2. ds1 is 4.10. I was spoilt with him, becasue after cs, and being in hospital for first week, he was all over the place when we got home for second week. sleepy. awake all night. but by end of second week, he totally flipped,and put himself in a routine that you could set yuor clock by.
I bf him at 6am,10am,2pm,6pm,10pm,2am.
He would bf for 20 minutes, burp immediately and I would be back in bed, asleep within 25 minutes.

So I was spolit. So thats why ds2 has come as such a shock.

He too was cs. jaundice, thick blood and low blood sugars. I was struggling with bf, so had to express before they would discharge me from hospital. then it turned out he was tongue tied. now been snipped. bf is not much better, despite going to clinics. they said it was a miracle I had managed it for this long. I have alot of milk,. so bf every time. then offer ebm.

it is tyring bf and pumping so often though.

He takes quite alot. i suppose it is demand feeding. but quite regularly throughout day. weight gain has been very good, says hv.

he is very sleepy. poohs are green, sometimes.
suggesting wind. maybe i should try infacol( been trying for a week) AND colief(used with ds1).
I have been expressing and throwing away the first 20ml of each breast, in order to get more hind milk into him, as recommended by over supply guides. that doesn't seem to have helped.

at 10pm he was still downstairs. dh said the only thing we haven't tried is formula. off i go to get some from our supplies.we try it for the first time, last night.

so between 10 and 12 he takes about 5-6 oz of formula. wide awake and chirpy.
I take him to bed at midnight. he continually feeds and winds, feeds and winds. at 3 or 4 am i have had enough.

I let him cry. and cry and cry. thinking 'tough love'. I can't do this holding him, co sleeping shit anymore. he needs to sort himselfout. and ds1 will have to get used to a bit of crying until he does.

then I take him back to his cot.
I wind. no burp. 25 mins i wind for. put down . leave room. he cries immed. i go back. wind him. burp. roots. I feed him. wind him, for 20 mins. no burp. put him down. cries. so it goes on.

at 5 am i leave him to cry and cry. dh comes. he has been in and out all night, to be fair.
he swaddles him and brings him to me, in our bed. dh downstairs.

i have cranial oestopath booked for tomoorow. ds1 had 2 sessions and i was not convinced, but am prepared to try anything.

am thnking that tough love is required. have fed him once thsi morning, but admittedly, not at 7am like GFord would like.

should i keep him awake and feed every 3 hrs. MAKE HIM

mind you, when nanny seaside and sil where here the other day keeping him awake and feding him lots, that made no difference, to the nightime.

during the night I opened up another formula and he had another 4oz of that. so he had 11oz throught he night.

I bf him this morning though. not formula.

but seriously we can't continue like this.
I need to change his body clock. I need to sleep, so that i can get up and do the school run , taking ds1 to school ( my sil has been doing this for me for 3 weeks, finishing this week)

dh and I are shattered. we did have a few nights of regualr sleep over the last couple of weeks. but for the last week, he has been awake ATLEAST 1am-4am every night. I give it and take him into my bed. ds on sofa bed. I don't want to co sleep though. I want my dh back. and I don't think I sleep that well anyway, when we co sleep. only doing it out of desperation.
I am at a loss as to what to try next.

All advice welcome.

Your baby sounds very like my first and it turned out to be reflux causing the unsettledness. A dummy was an absolute saviour but the thing that really helped in the end was infant gaviscon. I believe lactose intolerance can have similar symptoms too. I think it's probably worth investigating. I remember it was impossible to put the baby down even fast asleep because within minutes it would be screaming again. I feel your pain. Repeat 20 times "it will get better!"

I was also going to ask is he screaming like he is in pain or just moaning?

Is he gaining weight at a good pace? When dd was doing this, it turned out she was hypotonic and not strong enough to suck, so though she was spending hours at the breast and I had milk enough to supply a dairy, she wasn't actually getting much of it, so losing weight. Could your ds's sore tongue have a similar effect?

What happened to dd was that she would fall asleep very quickly at the breast as she was getting steadily weaker and then wake up hungry when I put her down.

This is the sort of situation where throwing away foremilk might help.

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cory - I agree. A baby who is too weak to get normal volumes of milk might benefit from 'engineered' ebm ....but oblamov's baby is gaining weight well.

I'm another who would recommend co-sleeping. It doesn't need to be forever just for long enough to get you through this stage.

I know what you mean about poor quality sleep but surely some sleep is better than none?

It will get easier. Sleep when he sleeps during the day and take people up on any offer of help. You will get through it because you have to.

Feeding too often caused dd to suffer hugely with colic! Several things combined helped us...

1. Gina Ford routine made us feed less frequently thus reducing the colic
2. Definately a DUMMY!!!!!
3. Swaddling propped up on her side

I know it sounds harsh but a couple of days of making baby wait at least 3 hours for milk will help them take more when they do feed. Then gradually make them wait a bit longer over night.

If we had listened to the health visitor & carried on demand feeding we would not be here today!
The first couple of days will be awful, but after that things should get much easier. Babies have to learn the difference between hunger & tiredness- we just helped DD learn it a bit quicker & saved ourselves from months of sleeplessness

Re the co sleeping - my DH didn't sleep with DS and me after the first few nights until DS was bout 8 weeks old. I will admit it did feel like a long time at the time but in the scheme of things it really isn't and SLEEP for everyone surely has to come first. I know what you mean about not sleeping as well with your DS there and not your DH (I am a dreadful sleeper and I find it hard when DH is not there), but you obviously are getting some sleep, which you aren't if you are in that rocking chair all night long. At least if your DH gets some sleep he can take over the other things and let you get some rest.

Unless that EBM is being used to give you some sleep while DH gives it your DH then I would definitely, definitely ditch it. I was a full time expresser as DS would not latch on and I hit upon the marvellous idea of collecting all the 'hind milk' to make DS sleep longer. He flipping didn't! All that milk wasted and still no result. I can't see the point in wasting a single drop of it and I can't see the point in expressing unless it makes life a lot easier for you. Also, if you are giving bottles (and dummies for that matter), it maye intefere with your DS improving his latch.

I really hope tonight is better

Can you not do sidecar?
I loved co-sleeping sometimes but also felt very uncomfortable at others.
I can't even have DP touch me when I sleep so I wouldn't get a moments sleep co-sleeping.
At least sidecar there was no getting up in the night, no sitting in a chair, nothing, just me hearing a murmur stretching out an arm, pulling him over, falling back asleep and then waking when he stopped feeding and sliding him back across.
I understand everyone has the best intentions saying cosleep, I always recommend it but for some people it really won't help.

Oblomov - can sympathise completely as I have a 5 week old and we've had very similar problems with sleeping.

After nights spent in dd's room feeding, burping, putting down, crying (both of us), feeding, burping... I was going mad with lack of sleep and eventually decided to do what I was told by mum and mil (been stubborn and stupid before) ...

• swaddle
• dummy
• co-sleep

It's early days but there has been a definite improvement in dd's sleep. Co-sleeping in particular makes a huge difference, you might still be feeding loads in the night but it won't seem as much of an ordeal if you can stay in bed to do it. If co-sleeping isn't working put the moses basket next to the bed.

DD is special, but there is NO WAY she would ever be allowed to sleep in our bed!
It's a slippery slope as you are only putting off the inevitable as they won't still be sleeping with you as a teenager!!!

Ob - my heart goes out to you. I had the same situation last year with dd1. I felt like I was going to die from lack of sleep after 2 weeks of being up ALL night.

I was also expressing throughout the day as she wouldn't BF and no one could help us to achieve it.

I eventually couldn't cope anymore. I bought the contented baby book and sort of followed it's spirit. I have to confess I switched to mainly ff at 6 weeks too (wish I hadn't had to) but the loose routine made an immediate difference.

She seemed happier and more settled although has never been a great sleeper. Just turned one and still not regularly sleeping through the night.

All this was without a four year old to cope with.

I wish you luck. It seems like you have lots of offers of advice and support already on here. I'm sure there will be others if friends and family know what you're going through.

karise - please don't confuse the normal and physiological and emotional needs of a newborn to be close to the source of love, reassurance and food with a 'slippery slope'.

Newborns wear nappies, because it is appropiate to their age and needs. They get wheeled or carried about because they cannot walk. We respond to their needs for cuddles and calming because they have not yet learnt to regulate their own feelings and need us to calm them.

Co-sleeping or not may be a personal preference on the part of parents but it has nothing to do with indulging the baby or giving in to habits you can't break.

Lots of things are done with newborns that happily and gradually are not needed when the baby grows out of the need...and if they dont grow out of the need soon enough, then parents can teach them how to.

its not a slippery slope at all. i have co-slept with all of mine for some of the time, the longest was dd3, ust because dh was in hopital for a year then i na hospital bed down the hallway for another year, so she co-slept for 2years. she now sleeps fine in her own bed and no issues at all.

dd4 currently sleeps in my bed some of the night most nights. we all sleep better as she then doesnt cry all night. i tried the first two nights trying not to co-sleep but she wasnt happy, i wasnt happy and we were all tired.

Karise, start a new thread saying what you said about the slippery slope, that is a great post , and I would love to discuss it with you, but this thread is not the right place!

Oblamov, I am so sorry for you. When you are seriously tired everything seems worse and it can make you feel utterly miserable. I think Tiktok and othhers have said brilliant things and I'm only repeating them, really. My DD and DS were difficult babies - especially DD (now 3). I, like you, worried too much about co-sleeping and if it would set 'bad habits'. What a load of tosh!!! I got myself 'The Baby Book' by Dr Sears and never looked back. DD slept with me (on my chest, firstly, then next to me) for a few months then momved to her cot with no probs. DS (now 20 months) slept next to me, with me on my side and him usually attached to my boob (!) for about 11 weeks. He, too, then went into his cot with no probs. DH was in bed too. Both are now excellent sleepers and I am glad they had the comfort and reassurance they obviously needed.
Tiny babies are just little animals, seeking warmth and comfort. They have no agenda. Talk of 'a slippery slope' or 'making a rod for your own back' is wrong, wrong, wrong and unhelpful. Most countries of the world follow co-sleeping - it is entirely natural for a baby to want to be near its mother. Separation is what is not natural (not counting someone else taking baby so you can have a break, of course!).
You -will- be fine. All this, which at the moment seems interminable, is just a tiny stretch of time and -it will soon be over-. I know that seems little comfort now but it's true and I've been there...twice!!
PS one more thing - v impt - I used 'white noise' to settle DD and DS, as well. It was amazing and they seemed entranced by it and usually stopped screaming. At first I had the hairdryer going (!) or a portable radio set to static then I bought a white noise CD on eBay, few quid. I'd recommend you try it - obviously you can't necessarily sleep all night with it on but it might just break the relentless crying.
Please, please snuggle up with your little DS. It is normal, normal, normal.

OB honestly I used to think cosleeping wasn't for me, and to an extent it isn't. HOWEVER I had grossly underestimated the difference that not having to get in and out of bed all night makes to how rested you feel. No, you may not sleep well with your baby next to you, or you may not sleep at all, BUT you will get far far more rest than either pacing the floor or sitting in a rocking chair. I fell into having ds in bed with me for at least some of the night due to sheer exhaustion-I physically couldn't get out of bed anymore.

And please don't think it is a slippery slope, ds is now 11 months old and settles well in his own cot, and spends the whole night there (apart from a couple of quick feeds). For us it was a temporary solution that helped both of us get more sleep-he wouldn't settle alone and I couldn't keep getting in and out of bed all night long. I didn't sleep well with him in the bed but I was certainly a lot more rested than when I was up and down all night.

There was a time when I had to spend a couple of hours in the middle of every night just walking up and down with ds in the sling screaming; I have never been so physically and emotionally exhausted. The only way I coped was to go to bed at 7/8pm (I'd feed ds and if he settled great, if not I'd hand him to dh), DH would then have him until 12/1am (bringing him to me for feeds if he needed it) and then I'd take over for the second part of the night. DH would take over for an hour in the morning again so I could have an hours refresher of sleep. Would something like that work for you? So that you can get a block of rest.

oblomov, much hugs to you dd was like this also...it was exhasting. the best advice i was given was to go woth the flow, if lo wants cuddling to sleep, cuddle, if cosleeping works co-sleep, and dont compare your baby to others , your baby is an indvidual and it makes you feel even worse if everone else is getting more sleep than you.
and as everyone here knows - it does get better....

I don't want to make this into a co-sleeping thread but I think different babies have different needs.

With my first dc, we didn't co-sleep. It just wasn't necessary, she stayed in her cot, then a "side-car" (love that term, whoever coined it) in our room until 6 months old and then went in her own room.

dc2 was totally different kettle of fish. We had to co-sleep for a while or no-one in the family would get more than 2-3 hrs sleep at a time. However, it was limited to a couple of months to get us through a rough patch. He is now happily settled in his own room.

oh, I hated dummies too, but they are like magic for some babies

I would really go with the co sleeping and swaddling and using a sling during the day.Both Dds sleep well in their own beds now they are 3.6 and almost two. So it doesnt last forever and its not a slippery slope its just what your little baby needs at the moment. And theres nothing wrong with cuddling them all day if thats what they need.I had to do this and often 24hr BF.I also tried the baby massage thing which is very relaxing for Mummy and baby!
I do feel for you, it doesnt last that long it will get easier.

Be boooooring and keep lights low at night, then be fun in the day! Babies cotton on to this really quickly.

A drop of lavender oil on a cotton wool pad near a radiator somewhere in the bedroom. White noise or womby noise works, as does baby massage (get a book!)

There's a special way to hold a baby who may be windy or colicky, and it's called Tiger in the Tree. Google it and see if you can get a picture or description. I used to do this with dc2 (for hours! aaargh!) and it really helped.

My youngest is 4 now ... can't believe it's so long ago.

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