To feel a bit sad for children in nurseries 8-6 every day?

[SlightlySad]

It struck me yesterday as I took DS2 to the aquarium then for a walk along the seafront that he was very lucky to be doing this. He'd had a few hours chilling out in the morning, taken his big brother to school, had a fun trip out, then back home for a nap.

If he had been in nursery since 12 weeks, then he wouldn't be doing half the things that he does - mother and toddlers, soft play, baby classes, singing classes, trips to the park, pre-school sessions... I know that some nurseries do these things, but it's not every day, and these are the better nurseries. Some children must spend most of their week in one room. I think this would drive DS2 mad.

I'm very lucky in not working, but this isn't a SAHM vs WOHM issue. I just think if I had to go out to work, that I would choose a childminder to care for my children rather than sending them to a nursery.

If you chose a nursery, does yours do lots of extra stuff? Do the children leave the nursery building/garden often? Why did you go with a nursery and not a CM?

asif - there is sound statistical evidence that having a significant period of time out of the workplace does tend to have a detrimental effect on earning potential and promotion prospects. Of course there will be exceptions to the rule, but statistically it is a fact.

Your implication that parents who work full time are missing out on some elusive aspect of parenting is your belief. A subjective opinion.

Big difference.

asif yes you are right

"Why does it matter that they get out of nursery?"

It's because they need to learn about the real world. I have witnessed 2 children recently with CM friends of mine. Both had previously been in FT nursery. One, at nearly 4, had absolutely no idea how to behave out around shops, banks, other people's houses etc. and the other, age 4, out walking with us happily strolled straight out onto a road without stopping. Her CM had to teach her all about how to cross roads. Something my eldest understood before the age of 2! Life skills, things that can't be learnt within the confines of a nursery building no matter how well equipped it is.

I suppose it reflects on the parents as well as the nurseries they went to. In an earlier post of mine I said as parents we need to be aware of deficiencies in our children's care. I would imagine a lot of FT nursery children wouldn't have these problems because their parents would be doing relevant stuff with them over weekends. I can quite understand though with busy lives that would be difficult. So surely it's better if the nursery can do it too?

notanotter has morphed into asif methinks

sbjective /objective argument is very handy in this case

I always thought that lots of activities was more for the benefit of the mum rather than the child. I know my DS would be very happy when he was a baby to bimble around the house. It was me that needed to get out

I probably didn't make the point well!!

I'm trying understand the arguement that women who work full time use when they say that working long hours doesn't do their kids any harm, but then they tell us when a woman has a break from work her career suffers completely

so they acknowledge time away from a career does harm but try to convince us that time away from young kids doesn't make a difference at all

thats what doesn't add up, time away from a career (eg.being at home or working part time) can and usually does affect a career
BUT time away from kids eg. kids in childcare 8-6 from an early age doesn't affect the kids at all

findtheriver, we can all find "sound statistical evidence" an anything if we look hard enough!

asif is muddling the two things. It is statistically proven that having a significant time out of the workplace is likely to impact negatively on your earning power, pension etc

There is no statistical evidence to show that parents who work full time miss out on parenting.

Some working parents may feel that they do (eg a SAHM mentioned earlier that her husband feels like this). But that's a subjective feeling. Many working parents feel differently. It is certainly extremely odd for someone who is presumably not working full time to make this assumption about parents who do. How on earth would they know!!

in these arguments a sahp will always be accused of smugness if fighting their corner

its a no win thread

ditto the other way round find the river surely

I rather thought the thread was started by a sahp criticising others' choice of childcare ...

asif - you are not getting it are you!

When people quote statistics about time out of the workplace, they are quoting figures for which there is hard evidence. And because earnings/pensions are very concrete things, it isn't difficult to state the facts about them. It's not just an issue about women - the same would be true for a man who takes a significant amount of time out of the workplace. You may not like the fact, but it's true.

You are taking this fact , and attempting to compare it with something entirely different. Why should working full time, per se, be detrimental to parenting children? You are entitled to have your own subjective opinion, but to try to compare the two statements as you are is nonsensical.

findtheriver, I'm muddling nothing, I've got nothing to prove, just stating my feelings on the subject

You are stating your feelings that parents who work full time are missing out on parenting - that's fine, your opinion, doesn't mean at all that they are though! And as presumably you don't work full time, I would let other people who do just get on with it!

My point, which you seem to not get, is that to say that because statistically having time out of work leads to less earning potential, therefore being in work must have a detrimental effect on parenting, makes no sense whatsoever!!

Thanks for expanding on that point Cory.

Re women 'Being ABLE to go to work'.
We were always ABLE to go to work (field, mill, nursing, being a servant etc) and in fact most women had to.

What has changed in more recent times is our ability to go for the more 'decent' jobs (managment, professions etc that had been demmed for men only), and to get the education required to perform them.

So idea that working women is a new phenomenon is quite wrong.

asif, it is a fact that time away from work does affect a woman's career potential, unless her career is in shelf-stacking. Trust me when I say it, being in the workplace for 18 years myself.

As for children being affected by long hours away from their parents in childcare, why should it affect children if they are otherwise happy at nursery and also happy at home. Can children not thrive in different environments with different faces, particularly if it is part of their daily routine. Do you think my dcs pine for me at nursery? How bizarre. They just play with the toys, interact with other children and carers, have tea and parties, go out on walks to the park. When they come home, they jump on our bed and splash in the bath. I cuddle ds to sleep all night long as we cosleep. On weekends, dh and I take them out as a family, birthday parties etc.

I'd like to know how I am harming my dcs by using ft nursery. Genuinely perplexed.

Quattro - I have a feeling I am banging my head against a brick wall here!! Can you explain any better?!

Of course, as you point out, the thread was of course, started by a SAHM criticising other people's choices......

I know FTR, the argument isn't logical. Nut that's okay. People cling to all sorts of illogical beliefs. My current illogical belief is that the children will feed the cats, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Notanotter - and woth parents are accused of being defensive about their choices if they fight their corner. They're also accused of being emotionally neglectful and of parenting children who can't cross roads. Hambo opined that the children of working parents are being mothered by somebody else and you yourself made a judgement about about what amount of money you need to earn for work to be 'worth' it. Smug? Smug? Count yourselves lucky thats all you get labelled. I think the wohms on this thread have had a far greater degree of opprobrium lumped on them.

I am still waiting for someone to answer the question that I asked several pages back.

What exactly am I missing out on as a full time working parent?????

I'm not sure you can persuade people of things they don't want to believe, FTR.

After a few of these threads, I've come to the conclusion that it's fundamentally necessary for women staying at home to believe that what they are doing is better for the children. It becomes visceral. Whether it is actually better depends of course on the quality of the parenting vis-a-vis the alternatives.

I've also come to the conclusion that for many parents giving up work is a blessed relief, largely because the jobs they had were too stressful, not fulfilling etc.

Sorry, haven't read all of the thread but was really struck by the comments about 'a small child isn't designed to sit at home with its mother all day' and conversely the comments about feeling sad for children at nursery 'stuck in one room'.

My daughter is two and two months. She likes her home better than anywhere else on the planet. I work three short days a week (lucky to have grandparents and family to help out on those days, plus her dad who works weird hours so she doesn't go to nursery). I often take her out to see different things and to toddler group once a week but actually she only really wants to go somewhere once or twice a week and not for long. Today we went to see the dinosaurs at the Natural History Museum and after a couple of hours (one of which was spent eating cake in the café) she turned round and said 'Shall we go home now?'. She spends nearly all her time in our front room with her toys and me BY CHOICE. Some children do like staying in one place, you know.