To feel a bit sad for children in nurseries 8-6 every day?

[SlightlySad]

It struck me yesterday as I took DS2 to the aquarium then for a walk along the seafront that he was very lucky to be doing this. He'd had a few hours chilling out in the morning, taken his big brother to school, had a fun trip out, then back home for a nap.

If he had been in nursery since 12 weeks, then he wouldn't be doing half the things that he does - mother and toddlers, soft play, baby classes, singing classes, trips to the park, pre-school sessions... I know that some nurseries do these things, but it's not every day, and these are the better nurseries. Some children must spend most of their week in one room. I think this would drive DS2 mad.

I'm very lucky in not working, but this isn't a SAHM vs WOHM issue. I just think if I had to go out to work, that I would choose a childminder to care for my children rather than sending them to a nursery.

If you chose a nursery, does yours do lots of extra stuff? Do the children leave the nursery building/garden often? Why did you go with a nursery and not a CM?

Have not read entire monumental thread, but just needed to chip in to say that my niece and nephew were in daycare 8-6 every day by necessity (my sister is a single mum with a full time job), do not seem particularly adversely affected by it, it was the best option for them all by far, and yes all children who have the full time attention of a loving adult (parent, nanny, grandparent or childminder) are extremely fortunate and an increasing rarity.

I don't get the "it's a long day" argument. It rather gives the impression that the children are working for 10 hours a day. It is a day.

thefallenmadonna... it's a long day away from the mother don't you think?

I am going to ignore the Troll-like smugness and answer honestly.

I chose nursery over a childminder for these reasons;

1. The nursery is within the hospital grounds so I could go over at lunchtime and breastfeed them, and I did this until they were a year or so and started napping at lunchtime.

1. The nursery is a formal setting with purpose built activities, swings etc in the garden, water play etc inside. Thier facilities are excellent, far better and more entertaining and stimulating that a CM's house could be.

1. The nursery staff are not lone adults caring for my children. I am able to dictate what I do and don't want the staff to do with my baby/child. A CM who is alone in the house with my children could put them in a cot and shut the bedroom door and leave them to cry themselves to sleep, and I wouldn't know about it. Because of the open, multiple staffed arrangment in the nursery I know they are doing what I ask. (I know that CM's don't do this btw, it's an extreme example to explian the whole peace of mind/trust issue that can be very difficult to get around when leaving your baby/child with strangers)

1. I didn't want my babies/children spending thier days with a "mother substitute". I like that idea of several carers looking after them, because even though they have key workers and do become attached to staff members it's not the same as them being with just one adult carer all day.

1. The transition to Pre-School was seamless, at around the age of 3 they began doing more "curriculum" style activities until they were doing a school-style day. DD1 walked into "Big Girl School" without a single tear, sniff or hesitation, she even told me I could go. (So much for long term bf, co-sleeping and baby wearing making clingy children!! LOL!)

Incidently, very few babies attend nursery from 12 weeks, we have been entitled to 6 months maternity leave for several years now, and this increased to 9 months last year, so most babies don't start nursery until they are between 6 and 12 months old.

Have not read the whole thread, however, there are Mums around who, in this hideous economic climate are desperate to keep their jobs in the interest of not bring thrown out on the streets and if it means the child going into Nursery then sometimes needs must. Some Mums don't get any other financial support, some don't get any other emotional support. I fully expect that no Mum ever wants to place a child in a nursery 5 days a week from 8/6 and it probably was not how they thought their lives were going to pan out. Sometimes someone comes along and pees in your teapot and you have to make the most of what you have.

I have a DD in nursery 3 days so I am very very lucky. We scrape by and make the most of what we have. My DD also goes for 'adventure' walks every day as we have big grounds at our nursery, she cooks, sticks, dances, sings, runs, jumps and generally has a right old laugh. We have mummy time too, it really is OK.

Someone above who mentioned 3 under 5s, when we had 3 under 4 we found a daily nanny was cheapest option and as that ensured I didn't have a career break so could for the 40 years after that earn the X hundred thousand a year etc it was a small price to pay. If you're just investing in your career on the till at Tesco and when you're 65 it would be the same job then I suppose the economics are different. A daily nanny looking after 3 under 5s is cheaper than three nursery places etc.

Most people get 6 weeks on 90% pay. If you earn a fair bit and have a mortgage and perhaps are the major earner then in reality you get 6 weeks maternity leave because the £112 odd a week you get after week 6 is far far too little to cover your expenses.

I love that expression, Fly, 'pees in your teapot'!

duchesse - says it all doesn't it!!??

I think it is a long time away from the parents, yes. But you were comparing it to adult days, so I misunderstood your point. I think there is plenty of down time, and enough variety of activity, for the day to be enjoyable. I suspect we disagree on the importance to the child of having his or her parents there full time.

Yup- really sums it all up. My sister is light years away from how she thought her life would be. She certainly didn't plan for her children to be in nursery and wraparound care when she had them...

Xenia if you were working at Tesco's then tax credits would cover the nanny entirely, you'd be in a better position than somebody earning £25k to pay for childcare. That's something else that often gets over looked, the less you earn the more your childcare is covered therefore it would be most worth your while working.

Katie- I am not exactly versed in these things, but surely you'd need to be paying as much tax as a nanny earns to be able to get the ensuring tax credits. Most people working at Tesco's do not anywhere near as much as a nanny.

duchesse - amen to that. I think people judge way too quickly. Walk a mile in someones shoes before you judge, there is usually a story to tell.

...let alone pay a nanny's salary amount of tax...

Do you know that you don't at all, the nanny could be paid £300 a week for 2 children and you could be earning a lot less, even nothing and you would still receive your wages, an allowance for the children and up to £300 to cover childcare costs. That's how bizzar our system is.

beforesunrise on Sun 16-Nov-08 14:17:36
"cory, i don't know where you live, but in central london property is always at a premium and many people (cms and non cms!) live in tiny flats."

Yes, I see what you mean, but this wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. IME there is nothing that ties the childminder to her flat all day. I know my children clocked up just as many walking miles with the childminder as they ever did with me. She was always taking them places, never in a car either, always on foot.

In the end, I think it has to come down to the individual nursery/childminder, even parent, what you feel is the best solution in your case.

I know my nephews have done very well at nursery and they always seem to be going out on events. We were happy with a mix of SAHM and childminders. There must be lots of different solutions that all work well.

very very very jobs earn enough to even get into the higher rate tax band (only 5 - 10%) so childcare must take a huge chunk of salary.
Xenia, you live a very rariefied atmosphere. The average jobs I've been looking at earn about 23K and that requires a degree and several years of experience.

KatieDD - does that mean I could get a nanny to care for dd? And it would be paid for? Is that really so?

Absolutely up to £150 for one child though so not sure if that would help but if you worked for 16 hours maybe you could have a nanny for 2 days and make her register with ofstead and then pay her the £150 gross ie she pays her own tax and NI. The problem you'll have is finding somebody that is suitbly qualified for her needs that'll accept that rate of pay

Should add that of course tax credits would include your husbands salary if you have one in the calculation as well, but you might get something towards the costs even if it's not all of them.
My point is that nurseries aren't the only option and nanny's don't have to adhere to the government early years thing either they can do whatever the parents want them to do with the child.

£150 would only cover 2 days! Bloody hell. I'm in the wrong job!
Now a nanny while I sat about peeling grapes....

I have read all the posts on this thread and cannot get over how nasty the Working Mums are when compared to the SAH mums.

The Working mums call the SAH mums smug, ignorant, thick, boring, patronising, (and this is just a few remarks, there are more)..

The few SAH mums who have been brave enough to admit to being on the thread have not descended into such personal abuse of the working mums. Most have been apologetic whilst trying to voice their opinions. Most have been shot down with such vitriol that they have not come back to the thread.

The original post was about CM versus Nurseries not SAH mums versus Working mums.

The opinion I have formed from reading all the posts is that some working mothers (who were rude and nasty about others opinions) are not happy about their choices as they defend themselves so verhmently.

If you are truly happy with choices you have made, I don't think you would get so angry at others opinions, however horrific they may seem.

No doubt this post will get some horrible comments, although I think VT may have logged off, so I may be spared the worst.

You know, maybe it's not possible for most of us to say what we really feel about this issue without appearing to insult those whose arrangements are different - even if we don't mean to.

I don't think I can say what I really think about professional childcare without giving great offence to a lot of people who use it for their children - not because I'm evil or want to upset people (which is why I don't post all of what I think), or because I have a need to justify my own choices, but because I have deep-seated beliefs about childcare that are extremely unfashionable.

Similarly, I suspect that a lot of you can't say what you really think about stay-at-home parenting, because it would seem similarly insulting, even if you didn't mean it to.

Then again, there are the posters who are just viciously, personally insulting without giving a stuff about whether what they write makes any sense, let alone whether it upsets people. But these are in the minority I think.

I agree policywonk. I tried to be honest about my feelings at the very beginning of this thread but it all went pear shaped. It is the first time I had been truly honest on MN, but it appears that my opinions were not in the majority so I was called a great many things indeed!

I certainly didn't mean to cause offence. I believe if you are doing what you believe is correct for you, then you should not be too concerned about what others think, (even if you find others opinions totally different to your own). certainly not concerned enough to call names.

I think this is one area on MN in which it doesn't do to be completely honest, because almost everyone is extremely touchy about their own child's welfare - and rightly so. I don't think people should be sneered at for it.

I don't agree that people who are confident about their own choices won't be upset by what other people say, by the way. I'm pretty confident about my own choices, but I still see red when people say rude things about SAHPs - why wouldn't I? I'm being insulted, and my GNVQ in Zen Buddhism doesn't stop me from getting angry about it. Again, similarly, I can see why parents who use professional childcare get extremely upset and angry when they read that other people think they're damaging their children by doing so.

A perfectly reasonable human response, I think.

too many assumptions are made about sah's. buggered if I know why given all of us have been at home, even if it was a few weeks.
I probably wouldnt have sah so long if the kids hadn't wanted home education.
But am planning to do some stuff now although I think dd's care is going to be a massive problem. dh will be her main carer cos he can lift her and I can't so he'll go back to work in jan school hours only. Dunno what I'll do but I need to attend appointmnts with her and dh.