to think its disgusting the people with money can get to the front of the nhs treatment que, treated in a nhs hospial by a nhs doctor

[freespiritfreedom]

i mean wtf is going wromg with this country ?

dh needs to see a consultant, its a 12 week wait nhs or if you pay, to see the same dr they can get you in, in a few weeks

its fucked up

In fact it's quite amusing to think how this system might work with schools. And probably deserves a thread of its own.

I think that one of the OP's gripes is that private treatment is using NHS facilities (albeit paid for) when perhaps the NHS could be using them to treat NHS patients, hence cutting waiting times.

My only gripe with private medicine is that dentists were forced to chose between NHS or private medicine a couple of years ago as my practice used to offer a mixture of treatments, the more cosmetic work (ie white fillings) weren't available on the NHS so you had to pay for them but if you were happy to have an amalgam filling, you could opt for that part to be done via the NHS. Now that option has been removed - you have to pay whichever filling you need. I also have to pay for my dd's check-ups but then in a purely-NHS dental practice, I would probably be lucky to get an appointment when I need one. Doctors can offer a choice of private or NHS treatment, so why not dentists?

yes, my light was lit by a friend about 20 years ago who was a Senior Sister on a SCUBA unit, who told me shewas doing work for a the same consultant, except for half of this time it was for his "private" patients.

The BMA have always, and still do, dictate NHS policy. Drs and consultants use NHS rresources, all of them, nurses, equipment, labs, admin etc for their personal profit. It IS theft, but a VERY white collar theft.

20 years ago Pan. Hmmm, things might have moved on a little since then ?

I'm a doc in a specialty that offers fairly little in the way of private practice and imo that which it does offer is inappropriate a lot of the time, eg paying privately to see someone who works in the general field of interest or waiting a while on the NHS to see the absolute expert in your area. I know which I'd choose.

Similarly with post-op care, where's the ITU if things go horribly wrong? Oh yes, at your local NHS hospital that you would have been at anyway but now you have to travel to in an ambulance whilst being horribly ill..

I don't have a gripe with the principle of private healthcare but I do think that it is misleading to patients in the way it works inthUK in some ways and I don't mean they way that docs are paid.

Rubbish typing, I have had wine , at a conference not at work tomorrow though .

OP I hope you are learning from this thread. oAs said before, private clinic starts when NHS clinic finishes, paying to use facilities which are otherwise unused anyway. Definately without private patients the NHS queue system would be much much longer, the private patients don't displace your appointment the level of urgency of other NHS patients does. Also many NHS consultants do extra work on top their normal work to see NHS patients at clinics arranged by the NHS out of hours eg sat or evenings so that they can see the extra patients needed so that the hospital is not breeching it's waiting time for patients. This has to happen because you can't fit in more than certain number of patients in the normal working day its not just the consultant we are talking about everyone needed to run the service. Clinics would have to run 24 hrs to be what you might want op and I don't think you'd pay the taxes needed, also these so called greedy consultants pay more tax than the average london salary, it's not them you should be calling greedy, they work hard to earn that and its actually not that much for the level of responsibility they hold so no wonder they leave and go to exclusively private places or abroad. Do you now you will earn more per hour working at a supermarket tan as a junior doctor with the hours you put in? If you are lucky enough to be a consultant you still don't always get as much as a top lawyer . The NHS has a 24 hr system in place for urgent cases ie A and E and most wards anyway when you would see the on call consultant straight away if the medical team feel its needed.

I would like to think things have 'moved on' but the restrictions on Consultants to commit such acts would have caused such a furore that I have my doubts.....

more recently another friend works for the "Improvement Foundation" as 'part' of hte NHS and she reports that the improvements she hosts are taken up by GPs in their private work almost unanimously prior to benefits being shared with the folk who pay for the infrastructure in the first place.

yes, I have a very healthy scepticism of the whole medical profession.

As an NHS worker,I can categorically state that the area I work in is one where EVERYONE gets the same treatment currently,as private hospitals afaik COULD NOT offer the same complex treatments.However the current hoo haa re cancer drugs being paid for could alter that in some ways,but only in terns of drugs being used in "Last gasp" efforts in prolonging life when prognosis is already very poor..A lot of treatment depends upon whether the Trust/PCT cansanction the cost of certain drugs.This IS NOT the fault of doctors,but more of the funding of different areas in terms of budget priorities etc

So if there are 40 people in a que and 10 people decide to op out of the que and pay for treatment then that will leave 30 people in the que and therefore the que being shorter they will get seen quicker for free?
I am all for people paying to make the free que shorter

Makes sense to me {wink]

In 6 years working in the NHS I have never seen NHS space, time or resources being used for private work. Maybe you've been watching too much Holby City?

What I have seen is the maxium wait time for an apppointment drop from 26 weeks to 11 weeks. I have never seen a patient charged a penny for anything - no matter how complex, rude or rich they were - they all got the same.

Those of you who think the NHS is 'shit' -you are wrong. It's not perfect and sometimes bad things happen but as an organisation overall, it is consistently delivering world class care to the population of this country.

Do those of you busy slagging it off actually realise what things cost? It is marvellous and incredible that you get care for free - I ordered a box of gloves today - sterile and for sensitive skin. That box of gloves costs £17 and will be gone very quickly. I work in a renal unit and a dialysis session can be roughly priced at around £300 per session. Every patient needs 3 sessions a week to stay alive. So thats £900 a week and £46800 to keep them alive for a year - unless they have a transplant which will also cost a scarily large amount of money. The waiting times are not there because we want to torture you - waiting times exist because the demand outstrips the supply.

It's not like ordering a burger - it's not instant. But it's not full of shit either. It would be nice if people could appreciate what the NHS does - and many people do - sadly usually when they've been at the sharp end of some health problem. To the rest of you - give it a rest. The NHS deserves respect not contempt and abuse.

NHS waiting lists are long due to government incompetency not because of greedy doctors choosing to do private work instead of NHS work.

Unless a Dr is medically negligent it is completely unreasonable to criticise them especially for what they earn. I know plenty of Drs and they work incredibley hard and have a very stressful job - they can never take an afternoon easy and surf the internet whilst pretending to work like many other workers I know.

OMG Tissy you managed to turn a doc bashing MN thread into a primary vs secondary care thread - very good - you'd be better off in the "croc pit"!
oh yes greedy fucker thats me - am GP - single mum - work me FUCKING socks off and earn far less than you would imagine !!
Maybe in my FREE time (time I would far rather spend with my kids) - I do some private work (insurance reports and the like)...it helps pay the mortgage nd the massive debts my dick H ran up - yes greedy fucker thats me

Well i am sorry if i offended anyone.
with my rant.

esp the likes of you, macdoodle.

we do have the money to pay and tbf its not that much, but we are strongly against it in princial.
paying to get see before the less fortunate.
just doesn't seem right to me, but your right life is not fair.

some people get ill, some don't

i should of really started a sensible thread, asking what are your views about private healthcare?

rather than posting in aibu.

anyway sorry about that

yanbu

If you have the money and you pay to get seen you are then allowing a person who can't pay to be seen in your place in that 12 week wait list. Saying that it's against your principles to pay when less fortunate is your choice but you hopefully can appreciate that people do pay and reduce the NHS load and are also paying taxes that go into the NHS anyway, I hope you get the appointment sooner and now have a more accurate perspective on things.

I have just come back from yet another ante-natal appointment at a really great NHS clinic in a well-kept hospital, where I was treated brilliantly, in fact probably a little better than I would have been privately around here.

I have to say the NHS has saved my life so often now I am always pathetically grateful, but I am also glad the private sector is there because I think it reminds the NHS that things can be done differently, and that it does not have a monopoly on quality healthcare. In other words, it keeps the NHS on its toes a bit and encourages continuous improvement. I feel the same way about private schooling.

It would be nice if we could improve movement between public and private sectors a bit, so there was more equity and transparency. However I am not sure if this is a bit idealistic.

macdoodle, I did not bash the gps, I said how my waiting times can be shortened, I specifically said that gps refer because the patients ask for referrals, which is true. We have advertised for someone else to share my workload, we have had no applicants, neither have the two other hospitals in the region that offer my subspecialty. There is no-one out there.

meanwhile, the government has promised that no-one will wait more than 18 weks from referral to treatment .

Something has to give, I cannot double my throughput.

We need patients to turn up, and tell us if they don't want their appointment.

We need to see patients who want surgery, not people who categorically don't.

There is no point seeing people who are not, and never will be fit for surgery.

A good 40% of my outpatient load is seeing "normal variants"- things that are not abnormal. Things that will get better themselves over time, or things that are completely normal. Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on those who a) have something wrong with them and b) can be helped?

I am not doing private practice at all. I only do medical reports for patients I have treated. I don't want to spend my free time working either, why are you having a go at me?

...and I doubt if I earn more than you.

My South of England GP BIL earns twice what I do. I'm aware that there is a lot of variation in GP salaries, just as there is in hospital medicine.

...and what is the croc pit? I have nothing but crocs in at the moment.

No matter what hospital you use, whether an exclusively private hospital, or an NHS-one, you don't just pay the consultant(s), you also pay the hospital costs, for your ward, nursing and theatre staff, meals, equipment, medication, etc etc etc.

It is wrong to say it all goes to "greedy" consultants.

IMHO anyway...

Northernlurker, I was charged for an antenatal scan by an nhs consultant done in an nhs hospital on an nhs scanner, she had not told me that she was doing this privately, although it was an extra scan (done to rule out exomphalous). When I contacted PALS about making a complaint, they said that it was a commonly heard complaint, and that most people pay (I refused) because they are scared that they will have to see the consultant/doctor again and won't receive good treatment. I don't have a problem with doctors doing private work, but it is wrong if a consultant does a 10 minute scan during a routine antenatal appointment and then sends you a bill for £120.

I agree that the NHS provides an incredible service, and I know that I was lucky to receive great care (on the whole) when I had to spend a lot of time in and out of hospital. That doesn't mean that it shouldn't be pointed out when there are problems.

Sorry not opinion, but experience. We have received separate bills from the consultants (specialist and anaesthetist), and other bills from the hospital (for ward, nursing and theatre staff costs, equipment, tests, etc etc etc).

So the hospital does very much get "compensated" too.

IME.

I pay a lot of money every month for the nhs (very annoying!) even though I always go private (and pay for it). I think the English NHS standard is far below any other health service in Europe and therefore not adequate for me. I prefer to pay for my private insurance and then see any doctor I like whenever I want.

This thread is 3 years old??!!

I read four pages of this before I realised it was a zombie thread!