to think that Learning An Instrument is a bit of a useless skill?

[morningpaper]

.... ?

It seems to be something that cheery middle-class mummies with too much time on their hands foist upon their (mainly female) children.

What is the point of it REALLY in this day and age? They don't need to trill something tuneful on the piano to snare a husband - is it REALLY worth the time and money for some very specific and probably fairly useless skills?

I agree - totally
I was forced to play -

• piano

-violin -recorder -clarinet.

I HATED it all.

If you love music, and your child wants to play then great - otherwise total waste of time i think

MP I think you are being deliberately controversial?

Yes to the middle class, no to the too much time on my hands, and I have two boys. The elder plays guitar with enthusiasm and skill, and has done for two and a half years so far. He plays classical and electric and wants to get his grade exams (two done so far) and be in a rock band with his mates. He is 9 yo BTW.

The younger plays piano with less enthusiasm but the practice isn't a battle, he just needs reminding. He is 7.

It is good for their happiness, good for their brains and it teaches them to practise until it sound right. It may bring them benefits in their teens as they can join a band or whatever.

Of course it's not useless!

I want to live at Beetroot's house and listen to lovely music all day long....

lucyellensmum waves to the rev!

Hmmmm, the thing is, i don't think it is a useless skill - it instills discipline. It teaches pattern recognition, both aural and visual. Hand/eye co-ordination, timing, etc. It is well known that music stimulates parts of the brain that otherwise would be un-used. In fact there was a paper published in quite a reputable journal that the brains of musicians are often more developed generally than non-musicians, although i don't think they had worked out if it was cause or effect. So learning an instrument is far from useless, even if you never go on to play it in adult life or make a career of it, it is actually great intellectual stimulus.

And that is what i think, this morning

And another thing - my niece, who finds the academic side of school a challenge at times, and is a very restless child, is gobsmackingly brill at the piano and will play for hours. It gives her something that she excels at, and earns her respect from her teachers, when she could just be a child who struggles at everything.

Imagine a world with no music because MP says it is not useful. Most of the most enjoyable things in life are not "useful". Do you think instead we should be teaching daughters to give amazing blow jobs to "snare a husband"?
Sounds like you actually have more a problem with mothers who are able to afford these lessons than anything else. Smarts of jealousy and resentment.

MAS - the devil's advocaat is banana flavoured [bleurgh]

My husband snared me as I was very attracted to his trumpeting skills. Ooh err.

lol yes I can see what you mean about that

I took singing lessons for 15 years and there are so many, many more useful things I can think of doing with my time, particularly when I was sent to crap schools which managed to teach me nothing at all

I have aquaintances whose young children seem to be on a constant stream of music lessons and I do think it is rather ODD

I think there is more than a jot of parental personal regret in a lot of it

I take it your child will be on a boiler maintenance course?

I have already taught my six year old boiler maintenance and tiling

What things in life do we count as useful, and which not? You could easily say that music, art, drama, etc are useless, as most people will not earn a living by doing them. But would you want a world without them? Should schools only teach things that the children will be able to get a job doing? You could equally say that for most children, maths beyond simple arithmetic is "useless", ditto science, literature, etc... Should children just be taught how to work in a factory, or serve customers in a shop, or file bits of paper?

Should we divide up children and only teach them the things that they can reasonably be expected to find useful in later life, or should we give them a chance to try out all sorts of skills?

Glad to see this thread as I have just been pondering DS2's French Horn playing, and wondering how we should progress with it.

He has lessons at school and we rent an instrument. One half-hour session per week in a class of six or seven, plus about three five-to-ten-minute practices per week.

He enjoys it and is doing fine. My hope is that he will stick with it so that over the years he gets to the stage where he can join in with the county music service's orchestra -- and then in later life can have fun performing with amateur orchestras.

To me it is beyond question that the instrument is a good thing for him -- just like sport it is an extra source of pleasure, social life, and self-confidence.

My prob is: do we up the nagging levels to the point where he is practicing more diligently and making more progress, but perhaps starts to enjoy it less? Or do we let him stay at the current rather shambolic amount of playing?

hmm a good question threadworm

I do agree that a lot of parents take their children to music lessons for reasons that have more to do with the parents than the children. When DS started violin lessons, there were defintely children going there who had no interest or talent, but their parents wanted them to do it. Most of them gave up after a year or two though, so I don't think there are huge numbers of parents who force their children to carry on for many years when the child has no real interest.

For DS, it was the start of something which has developed more and more into the thing he wants to do in life - he went on from violin to be a cathedral chorister, added two more instruments, and now at 15 is looking towards careers in music. If he had never started with the "typical middle class" lessons, then he wouldn't have known he had that talent, or learned all the skills he has got from it - not just in musical terms but also concentration and self-discipline which have helped with academic work as well.

What age is he Threadworm? I tend to go with "shambolic" being good, if it goes along with enjoyment But as they get older, there does have to be a decision about "taking it seriously"

Hi morningpaper, my mother made me and my elder sister learn the piano, take music exams etc. My sister had all the talent and natural ability, I hated it with a passion and only wanted to dance ballet. It was good for my sister's confidence to be accomplished in piano, as academically I was better than her. By the time it was my db' turn, my mother had lost the will to live, with me, and so he never had to do this.

I would at some stage float the idea to dd and ds. But learning from my mother's mistakes, it has to follow the child's interest and not just be a 'string-in-the-bow' (pun!) competitive activity.

Oh, yes, he is nine. Has been learning for about 6 months. Hasn't even done a grade yet and I don't have a clue about the grading system

His teacher is pleased with his progress and says that he 'fits' the french horn very well. I've a feeling we should be doing more.

Well, if the parents are sending their kids to music lessons as just another 'accomplishment' to add to the Fencing, Japanese etc, maybe it's a bit wrongheaded but I think it should depend on how much the kid enjoys it.

I badgered my parents for instrument lessons when I was little and it gave me masses of pleasure. I still play.

I know what OP means about painful, competitive parents but to say learning an instrument is a useless skill per se seems a bit reductive...blinkered...and dare I say it, a little uncultured.

I think every child should have the opportunity to learn an instrument, they may not become professional musicians, they may give up after a term, or they may enjoy it and carry on learning just for the sake of it. Dd loves her cello lessons and particularly loves going to string group and orchestra practice (and I check with her from time to time to make sure she's happy with it and she knows she doesn't have to carry on with any of it - it's her choice). She also loves her singing lessons, drama lessons, drama group...... All pretty useless indeed, apart from the fact that it makes her feel good, gives her confidence, teaches her about putting effort in things that she enjoys, and lets her mix with different people.
But then I am pretty middle class.

What an ignorant Op.

I learnt the piano, oboe, and flute at school, and it brought me so much enjoyment. I practised at home too, so I learnt a lot of discipline and commitment.

We got to socialise too, at camps, and with other schools too.

My DH is not at all musical, but I would be delighted if either of my DSs showed any interest.

Should add too, that my dad played the flute, and he had to make the choice whether to make that his career, we're talking 50 years ago, so it is very much not only for girls (and no they were not "middle class").

oh, but one thing I do find pointlessly competitive is rushing your children through grades.... Let them enjoy the music, build a repertoire, acquire technique, etc....

Threadworm, the French Horn is one of the harder instruments for a multitude of reasons. And nine is quite little. (I'm impressed!) I think don't fret over the practising, just gently encourage or you might risk putting him off. Grade system - Grades 1-8. GRade 5 is the sort of standard you need to be if you take Music GCSE (there is a performance element). I wouldn't worry baout him not having done a grade yet. He's only a babby, and he will be grappling not just with the practical elements but with learning to read music too. It's a long road and it's early doors.

Um, let's see, what have I gained from learning a musical instrument (in my case piano, violin and voice)?

• teamwork (choir and orchestra)
• self-discipline (practising regularly)
• perseverance (working on the tricky bits till they come right)
• ability to control nerves and perform in public - didn't master this till I was late 20s - am now in a job which involves a lot of standing up in front of a crowd and speaking/managing/even singing sometimes (church work) Couldn't have contemplated doing it without the foundation that I've got through musical performance training
• lots of great friends and an extremely good social life
• extra pocket money (when I played for a ballet class in my teens, and from carol-singing)
• the opportunity to perform in awesome venues like the Albert Hall, St Paul's Cathedral, St George's chapel Windsor
• the chance to meet royalty (at Windsor)
• an appreciation of music, which has the capacity to fill my soul with good things and give me a bigger high than any man-made substance anyone has yet thought of

Shall I go on? I could!!

And that's all without being remotely good enough to make a living out of it.

IF they enjoy it, getting into music is a fabulous thing to do. If they don't, I daresay there are other ways to gain all the above, although I struggle to think of them.

Thanks v much LadyT, thats helpful. The key thing does seem to be that he likes it, and it is all so relaxed as things are. I'd hate to spoil that.