to be getting a little bit fed up with a friend who...

[beforesunrise]

she's one of my oldest and closest friends, a bit neurotic, but aren't we all, but a good girl really and i love her. but she is starting to seriously annoy me and i want to talk to her about it before i snap one day and damage our relation.

basically she's my age, 32, v beautiful, fabulous career which makes her tons of money, just got married and dh makes even more money- they are in the process of buying a mansion in Surrey virtually mortgage free. so far so good, am happy for her, i have made different choices and have a different life but that's not what grates me.

every time the topic of children comes up, she always says: 'yes, dh wants children, and i do too, just not now'. when i ask her, well, if not now when, it becomes clear she doesn't actually want them, she starts saying how she doesn't want to stop working even for 5 months because she doesn't want to hurt her career, how she doesn't want to damage her perineum in childbirth, how she doesn't want to get stretch-marks and have her boobs sag and her tummy all wrinkly, and breastfeeding revolts her (she doesn't even want me to breastfeed my dd in front of her because she finds it distasteful- i tell her she's crazy and do it anyway!) and she loves her sleep too much etc etc.

to me these sound selfish and stupid reasons not to have kids, sure we are all scared of having kids but you just get on with it don't you? she is in the lucky position of being able to afford live-in help if she wants to so it can't possibly be that bad. moreover (and ithink that's what really grates me) all of the above has happened to me- career stalled, perineum damaged (thankfully now fixed), saggy boobs, wrinkly tummy, no sleep in 3 years etc etc. so i am starting to get a little bit pissed off that she seems to think it's ok to slate my life constantly and thoughtlessly, tbh none of the above is a big deal, my dds are beautiful, but still it annoys me as i think she is judging me a little bit for my frumpy clothes and unmanicured hands and (proudly) battle-scarred body kind of thing.

personally i think she needs help- no one loves their body so much that she'd rather not have children to preserve it intact. but do i just tell her this- or tell her to stop banging on about it as my patience is wearing thin- or say nothing and let her talk on?

thanks if you've read so far...

beforesunrise, I hope I'm wrong but you sound just a bit annoyed as she has everything a person could want and although you have beautiful children to show for it everything else has been on the give side.
Other women are in the same physical condition as you as child birth is traumatic (not all but most I would venture to say) and a person doesn't get younger.
Lack of sleep, carrying another person around inside you and actual birthing all take its toll.
If her husband wants children and she doesn't it isn't anyone's issue but theirs. Let it be theirs as it sounds like everything else for them is golden, roses, rainbows. It just sounds like a case of you and her both lamenting about the grass being greener on the other side of the fence.

I like Xenia's suggestion of a surrogate for OP's friend, lol.

Actually pregnancy and childbirth does not have to ruin your body. I have put on weight over the years and my belly is softer than in my thrusting youth. But just 2 days' ago, I was asked by a checkout lady for my age because I had some booze in my shopping. I am practically twice the legal age. She could not believe my age or the fact i had 2 dcs. A lot of comes down to genetics and lifestyle.

My perineum is not damaged - 2 c-sections. My career is stalled from working pt but that was my choice. I haven't slept a straight night's sleep for 4 years. But I am used to it.

I would say it is does not have to be as bad as she envisages it. Best thing is my 2 unbelievably sweet dcs - I know what Xenia means about being proud of your brood, even if you/they are not immaculate. Motherhood changes your whole perspective - children are the greatest wealth.

..and I don't look too bad for 46. People constantly say they can't believe I have 5 children and am the age I am (although that might just be flattery for business purposes). And physically I don't think my body has been damaged by five vaginal births either. But siome people just find the whole birth thing absolutely disgusting whereas when I was 14 I was avidly reading my mother's NCT leaflets about childbirth positions, books about breastfeeding and had very strong maternal urges which not all women have.

None of your business, stop asking her. If you are worried about her DH being hurt because he does want them, stop. That is one subject that should have been ironed out before getting married.

I used to get v. annoyed with people who kept asking us about starting a family. Because we had been trying for years and it was too raw and painful to talk about, especially with people who had never been through it and could not grasp the pain of not being able to get pregnant. Even if it is psychological barriers that are preventing her from starting a family, though she thinks about it a lot, it is still a very personal issue.

She isn't asking. The friend brings it up!

I have read this thread all the way through and have this comment:

Well done SPB on pointing out (a few times ) that:

The OP isn't asking, it's the friend who brings it up!

, Beforesunrise, I vividly remember telling everyone who'd listen about 3 mths before we conceived how I didn't want babies (for ages) and that we were enjoying our life together as newlyweds (and that babies were messy, couldn't handle nappies etc etc). I think I must have been in denial/working it all out in my head as we planned our DS1.

I think OP has the right attitude, but some people are very strange.

Xenia has prompted me...I have a friend who is a very high powered US lawyer earning stupid amounts of money. He told me a story about a colleague (aged 39 female) who had broken down on him because she couldn't get pregant. I would guess that she and her DH together earn something like £1.5m pa.

My suggestion would have been to take some time out and see what happens. Theirs was to go and book a surrogate. No accounting for folks!

Is she really judging you or do you only "feel" she is?

I would also say you are also judging her. She apparently has real issues about what having a child will do to her body and you are immediately dismissive of these as "selfish and stupid" and you're supposed to be her friend.

And you're apparently coming from the point of view where you can't understand people who choose not to have children.

Only skimmed thread but why does it matter so much to you?

She might be TTC and doesn't want to broadcast it or genuinely doesn't have a timescale in mind for having a child. At 32, she does have a few years in hand.

I don't think her finding BF-ing repugnant is really bad either as that is something else that she'll likely change her mind on if/when she has a baby.

Let it go and enjoy her as she is, not as you think she ought to be.

as i have said before- thanks to everyone WHO READ MY POSTS and offered sensible advice.

i am ignoring everyone who has patently not read my posts and is joining in just to have a go at me. all in the spirit of the AIBU game i suppose!

Your friend sounds as though she's scared. A lot of people probably do ask her, especially if so many of your mutual friends are having children. The fact that she is bringing it up with you clearly means that she is comfortable with you as your are not annoying her all the time with the blasted question - probably hasn't even thought about how it might annoy you.

And you know what? It is scary. I positively avoided children as best as I could until I was ready. All of my sisters had had children, and were constantly trying to get me to hold them, look after them, in a very poor attempt to get me feeling maternal and wanting to have children. I was married for 16 years before I had a child, through choice. And boy did it turn my life upside down. If I hadn't been ready, I would have made a pretty poor mother.

But your friend has to realise that it's not easy for you, because no matter how much you love your children, you don't love the after effects, you just love the children more than you don't like what's happened to you. (And she has to realise that going on about doesn't exactly make you feel wonderful - you need to be a good friend to her, but she also needs to be a good friend to you too!)

Be honest with her - tell her that yeah, it sucks having all these things happen, but for you it was worth it. For most women it's worth it. And quite frankly, she sounds as though she has enough money to make most of the horrible side effects go away. Had a cousin who was scared of having children, because she had heard so many horrid stories about labour. My sister pointed out to her, that ok, maybe it was bad, but all the women who griped about how bad it was went on and had more children, so seriously, how bad could it have been? It made her think about it, and she was way more comfortable about the idea of having children after that reality check.

Why don't you lead the conversation for once, and tell her that you know that the idea of having children can be really scary, but that you just want to make sure that she has taken steps to make sure she can have them when she feels that she is ready to have them. The Sunday Times just had an article in it about ovary transplants. These things are more than possible for women now, not just for men.

There have been successful births from frozen eggs, and not just embryos (she shouldn't leave herself at the mercy of her partner being around if she ever decides she does want children, and if she had an embryo frozen, she may not have the option of having it implanted if he does not agree). Also from strips of ovaries that have been transplanted.

Maybe this sort of a talk will actually make her think through things properly, and decide whether she really does want children or not.

i also suppose, on reflection, that i struggle to understand the loss of looks argument cos i've never had any. or rather, i now know that i was beautiful and thin and had great boobs, i just didn't think so at the time. same thing really i guess

Why do there have to be 'arguments' on both sides? Isn't it just about personal choice?

I don't have kids and I know that my friend who does feels just like the OP - she can't stand seeing me any more as I have lots of free time, holidays etc and our lives are just so jarringly different now it's hard to find common ground any more. My friend always wanted kids and I know she can't understand why anybody wouldn't also want them.

The thing is, you have to remember how you felt about other people's kids before you had them yourself. If they aren't your own kids and you don't have that love for them yourself then it can easily look like a raw deal: ie no money, messy house, noisy kids, no free time etc etc.

If she asked me all the reasons for not having kids (and as a good friend she's welcome to ask) then most of my reasons would be like your friend's. Ie, I'm frightened to lose the life I love.

This isn't slagging off your choices, it's just saying that hers are different. It's a pointless task trying to promote one way of life over another, as people on both sides will feel judged and unfairly treated if you point out what is missing in their lives.

Just as I think her life looks like chaos, she thinks mine looks shallow and meaningless. There's no way of bridging this ime, and I just hope that we can get our friendship back either when I have kids myself or when hers are older.

"my friend who does feels just like the OP - she can't stand seeing me any more"

ehhhr. no. i don't feel like this at all about my friend. i want to keep on seeing her, which is why i would love to be able to deal with this issue without losing our friendship.

and i am not trying to "promote" my way of life!

Sorry, should have said we can't stand seeing each other any more. Not in a dramatic way, just don't find anything of mutual interest any more.

Obviously the only way to solve the OPs problem is to just tell her that you feel hurt that she seems to think your life is rubbish.

Maybe you could agree just not to talk about that issue. Most women will feel slighted by friends supposed 'bragging' etc regardless of having kids or not though. There's always something to take offence at or feel compared to isn't there.

I have two friends, both childless, currently racing towards marriage in such a competitive way they might as well be carrying spears and shouting 'geronimo' at each other.

you've clearly served as a warning to her. Leave her alone. It's her choice not to have kids. Not everyone wants them and not everyone (as we know) is a good parent. If you think she has selfish reasons for not wanting kids then how do you think she would be if she had kids?? Suddenly become Earth Mother Supreme which would probably piss you off too. You sound jealous of her lifestyle and the fact that she doesn't want to end up like you.

YABU its none of your damn business when and if she has kids

Think I might change my name to

ItsTheOPsFriendWhoiBringsUpTheSubject

boo

Sounds to me like she's going through a bit of a dilemma, realises she's at a crossroads and is just vocalising everything she can think of pro and con. If you're really close I'd be honest with her and gently suggest you hope she's not using you as a living embodiment of all the cons of motherhood. Maybe it's time to start upping the joys of motherhood and everytime the conversation comes up tell her a funny story about your dcs or something that might help her see that 9 months carrying a baby round and a long and painful labour are nothing compared to the joy of children. And lets face it, our bodies all got to pot in the end anyway, who cares about a great body when you're 80 if you're alone, but if you're 80 and surrounded by your children and grandchildren it's got to be something to celebrate.

despairs

I agree with HeadFairy, it sounds like she's talking to you to try to work thorugh her decision. And as you are (presumbly) on the side of motherhood she has to play devil's advocate and argue to side of 'why having babies is rubbish'. She may not rate the things you've quoted (her figure, money, etc) as highly as it sounds, she might just be trying to add up the pros and cons.

Of course, if that is the case it would perhaps have helped if she had started with 'I am not sure' rather than just reeling off a list of the cons of motherhood and hoping that you could provide the pros.

Hey, howd'ya change your name so quick stealthpolarbear? that was cool!!!

Although the OP says that it is her friend who brings the topic up, what she wrote in her original post was as follows:

"every time the topic of children comes up, she always says: 'yes, dh wants children, and i do too, just not now'"

(A pleasant enough non-comittal answer)

"when i ask her, well, if not now when",

(Why ask her, exactly?)

"it becomes clear she doesn't actually want them, she starts saying how she doesn't want to stop working even for 5 months because she doesn't want to hurt her career, how she doesn't want to damage her perineum in childbirth" etc etc etc"

(YOU asked her, OP, so you got her reasons!!!)

"to me these sound selfish and stupid reasons not to have kids, sure we are all scared of having kids but you just get on with it don't you?"

(No, you don't HAVE to, you can choose not to have kids.)

"she is in the lucky position of being able to afford live-in help if she wants to so it can't possibly be that bad."

(Affording live-in help does not equal wanting kids!)

"moreover (and ithink that's what really grates me) all of the above has happened to me- career stalled, perineum damaged (thankfully now fixed), saggy boobs, wrinkly tummy, no sleep in 3 years etc etc".

(This is probably the heart of the problem).

"personally i think she needs help- no one loves their body so much that she'd rather not have children to preserve it intact".

(Some people might and that's their choice!!)

I'm sorry you feel bad about this beforesunrise but I think you need to look to yourself rather than her. If you are happy with your lot then why care what her opinions are on children, childbirth etc? Just enjoy her as she is.