to be getting a little bit fed up with a friend who...

[beforesunrise]

she's one of my oldest and closest friends, a bit neurotic, but aren't we all, but a good girl really and i love her. but she is starting to seriously annoy me and i want to talk to her about it before i snap one day and damage our relation.

basically she's my age, 32, v beautiful, fabulous career which makes her tons of money, just got married and dh makes even more money- they are in the process of buying a mansion in Surrey virtually mortgage free. so far so good, am happy for her, i have made different choices and have a different life but that's not what grates me.

every time the topic of children comes up, she always says: 'yes, dh wants children, and i do too, just not now'. when i ask her, well, if not now when, it becomes clear she doesn't actually want them, she starts saying how she doesn't want to stop working even for 5 months because she doesn't want to hurt her career, how she doesn't want to damage her perineum in childbirth, how she doesn't want to get stretch-marks and have her boobs sag and her tummy all wrinkly, and breastfeeding revolts her (she doesn't even want me to breastfeed my dd in front of her because she finds it distasteful- i tell her she's crazy and do it anyway!) and she loves her sleep too much etc etc.

to me these sound selfish and stupid reasons not to have kids, sure we are all scared of having kids but you just get on with it don't you? she is in the lucky position of being able to afford live-in help if she wants to so it can't possibly be that bad. moreover (and ithink that's what really grates me) all of the above has happened to me- career stalled, perineum damaged (thankfully now fixed), saggy boobs, wrinkly tummy, no sleep in 3 years etc etc. so i am starting to get a little bit pissed off that she seems to think it's ok to slate my life constantly and thoughtlessly, tbh none of the above is a big deal, my dds are beautiful, but still it annoys me as i think she is judging me a little bit for my frumpy clothes and unmanicured hands and (proudly) battle-scarred body kind of thing.

personally i think she needs help- no one loves their body so much that she'd rather not have children to preserve it intact. but do i just tell her this- or tell her to stop banging on about it as my patience is wearing thin- or say nothing and let her talk on?

thanks if you've read so far...

I think they are EXCELLENT reasons not to have children.

It is not selfish to not have children. It IS selfish to have children if you are not able or willing to do so with your whole heart.

She is perhaps not willing to give over her life or body to a child - how totally sensible of her to recognise this and to not fall into the trap of feeling pressured, feeling like she has a womb therefore she has a duty to fill it. THAT is stupid, imo!!!

However, if she is criticising your choices, well, that is a different matter and certainly your right to say to her that she is not to look down on the choices you have made, just because she wouldn't make them.

(That last paragraph applies equally to you, btw)

I have a lot of childless friends, who talk about their plans to have kids, or not. I say 'I'm not the procreation police. I made the choice to have kids, but that doesn't mean you have to take that choice.'

I love my kids, but the fact is, life is easier without kids! Why mind that, for other people, the hassle outweighs the benefits?

I'm impressed you're still friends. At this point anyway . I had to let at least one 'friendship' slide because of our totally different mindsets. She wrote me off as 'boring' because i'd had a child and I was bending over backwards trying to prove her that I was 'the same'. But I wasn't, but so what, I wasn't as boring as she was! Baby or no baby! She would go on and on and on about mortgage rates or fabric patterns for her sofa or some guy at her bank.

Adios amiga I'm afraid.

ehhr... sleepyeyes (and liffey)... what makes you think i continuously ask her?? in fact every one seems to assume that i call her daily asking her when she's about to have kids- far from it! tbh i would love nothing more than chat about non-kids related things as she is probably my only childless friend by now.

it is in fact usually she who brings up the topic of children- i think she is really struggling with what she feels and wants wrt having them. she will call me, for example, with news of yet another of our friends who's pregnant and then start moaning about how she doesnt' know, etc. and how her dh wants them now and she doesn't. and then immediately start going into the sagging boobs thing. two weeks before i had dd2 we met for coffee and she spent the whole hour banging on about how scared she is of the pain of childbirth- and there i was reassuring her it's not that bad, and afterwards i thought- well you know what, she should have been the one reassuring me, after all i was the one about to go through it again!

that bit (the struggling, the not knowing what she wants, the doubts and fears) i can completely understand and as a friend who loves and cares for her i am of course always willing to listen. and whatever she wants to do with her life, i will support her in her decisions. when i ask- if not now when- it's because i think that's one way to look at the reasons why she doesn't want them yet, and i think that maybe that will help. not because i want in any way to put pressure on her to follow my choices!

but what i don't like is the fact that in order for her to elaborate her feelings she has to, somehow, use me as an example of the horrors of motherhood- and i do feel that's what she's doing a bit, whether consciously or not i do not know. that really grates with me.

so point it out to her.

The facxt that she keeps bringing it up makes me think she does want them but is scared of all the changes and just wants reassurance that nothing will change (which you can't give her - because it will!)
i dfo see what you mean about using you as an example - how many other friends of hers have dcs? When my friends started having children I thought every woman tore and most people struggle to bf because they had. If you are the only one with children (i notice other friends are pg) she might assume your bad experiences are standard. Maybe next time she comments on a specific thing counter it with practicalities. For example I'm putting my career on hold now but will be getting back into it in a few years knowing that I shouldn't need to do it again. BF - just laugh and say a lot of women feel like that, you'll change your mind when you're pg. That sort of thing...

People without children just don't 'get it' I find. They have no idea how facile and pointless having an 'intact perineum' or 'pert breasts' actually is once you have a newborn babe in your arms. BUT while you might think they're selfish reasons they are HER reasons and she shouldn't have to justify herself to you or anyone else. If you feel she's being hurtful or putting you down, talk to her. If you really are such good friends she'll listen and apologise and you can move on with your friendship, if now ce la vie.

oh, sorry. just in your first post you said you asked her 'if not now, then when?".

there doesn't have to be a when.

But I know that it is a testing time for friendships. In a way, she's right. It's hard, being pregnant, giving birth etc etc.. if she isn't desperate enough to have a child to make those 'horrors' worth it, then I guess I can understand why she's saying oooh no thanks.

Don't worry about it. this is SO par for the course when some friends have babies and some haven't and don't want them. Can be worse if you have friends who want them but can't have them.

I think the OP asks when as a way of asking what is going to change in this woman's life - what needs to happen before she'll decide having DCs is a good idea

PS, I think she's not setting out to 'use' you but as you're her sounding board for all the 'saggy talk' it must be quite draining on you!

I think a bit of blunt talking could be in order. "If you want a child then it WILL seem worth it".

To be blunt as well, you have your family and it's her difficult decision to grapple with you know??

Very true Liffey
As I said she wants you to reassure her nothing's going to change, well it will!

SPB- exactly.
Liffey- thanks, sensible advice

and thanks everyone (now better go 'enjoy' my grumpy teething baby...)

YABU The woman is clearly not ready to have children. Maybe one day she will feel ready to have children , maybe she will never have children - does it really matter to you?
If she has led her H to believe that she really wants children then she is being unreasonable.
Women are not just put on this earth to pop out kids. Some women are just not maternal.
She is a bitch for whinging about BF. I would have told her to fuck off tbh

What's it got to do with you when she has kids?

Maybe she is having trouble conceiving and wishes people would butt out and leave them to it!

I totally disagree Pheebe. I love my children, but my god when I got home with my first, stood on the scales and saw what I weighed, and looked at the carnage of my body in the mirror, I cried and cried and cried! It was awful and shocking to go from quite an attractive woman with a nice body to a giant, semi-deflated whale. And no, the fact that I had a baby did not make it irrelevant to me.
It's nonsense to say she's getting at you when she articulates her own worries about HERSELF. If you don't want to discuss it, say, Yes, you sound really undecided. Anyway, plenty of time yet! Did you see those pix of Madonna with Britney eh?/ What about that Barack Obama?/fancy a coffee on Tuesday/How's your work going/Do you think these shoes would be nicer in purple or grey... (ie change the subject to something more interesting)

Maybe she is trying to stop you from asking again with all this saggy talk?

Maybe you are a bit rude to keep asking?

Having kids is a personal choice.

Or not.

We were three friends. When friend A was the first of us to get pregnant, she was always asking us "when will you have kids?" . Then I got pregnant, and she focused on friend B, always asking "When will you have kids? You are so good with them, you will be a perfect mum" etc. Friend B was just making non-committical small talk, but one day she snapped; "For the love of God, will you just please stop pestering me about kids? Did you EVER stop to think that we might have been trying for years already???"

Embarassed look on Friend A's face.

Stop pestering your friend about it, and be a little sensitive to her instead.

"every time the topic of children comes up, she always says: 'yes, dh wants children, and i do too, just not now'. when i ask her, well, if not now when, it becomes clear she doesn't actually want them, she starts saying how she doesn't want to stop working even for 5 months because she doesn't want to hurt her career, how she doesn't want to damage her perineum in childbirth, how she doesn't want to get stretch-marks and have her boobs sag and her tummy all wrinkly, and breastfeeding revolts her (she doesn't even want me to breastfeed my dd in front of her because she finds it distasteful- i tell her she's crazy and do it anyway!) and she loves her sleep too much etc etc."

That all sounds like perfectly SANE and reasonable reasons not to have children to me.

Here, let me add a few more

Loss of that exclusive relationship with partner, less money to spend on yourselves, buggered sex life, you look instantly old when you have children, you never get the house to yourself anymore, in fact you are lucky of you get the bathroom to yourself anymore, you have to do the whole mother and toddler thing, your topic of conversation revolves around nappies and ballet for the forseeable future, you will NEVER have any money........need i go on...........

The thing is, both of my children were unplanned, but i adore them both - but im pretty sure that i would have said all those things. In fact, before DD2, i DID say all those things. But deep down, i always wanted children and i wanted both my girls from the minute i knew i was pregnant.

BUT, it does not have to be hardwired into women to want children and all the reasons she gave would be enough to put you off if you really didnt feel overly maternal. She says maybe in the future? So, maybe when she feels more settled etc.

It quite frankly is none of your business that she doesn't want to add to the worlds population problems and you do sound a tad jealous to me. Heaven knows i would be of their lifestyle.

Many of the problems she is listing can easily be overcome, if she is as wealthy as you describe. House keeper, nanny, personal trainer, etc. My wealthy surrey friends (indeed I do have some) have managed to keep their glamorous lifestyle, and the children are some pretty cool/cute accessories to go with it. Especially to broaden their circle of rich and successful friends, through private schools in Surrey. In fact, most of them has become seriously posh after their kids came along and they entered the "private schooling scene of surrey".
For that reason, I dont believe your friends reasons for a one moment.

yabvu

it sounds as the only judgey one in this relationship is you!!

What business of yours is it?

Very often people project their feelings, insecurities and worries onto their friends.

If you feel you look frumpy and that your career has stalled moan, moan, blah, blah DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT

I'm not sure of the quality of your friendship tbh

THE OP IS NOT ASKING
HER FRIEND BRINGS UP THE SUBJECT
ahem

who are you shouting at? moi?

Do you actually bring up the subject of children? Do you ask her about having children?

This woman to me sounds as if she doesn't want dc but her bf keeps asking when? She doesn't have the courage to tell you perhaps that she never wants children - she is afraid of what your reaction will be.....Guessing by what you have written she is right it will not be a good reaction to her choice in life, so she says "soon" and then drops all the hints that she's not really into the idea at all.

Just shouting because the OP has said a few times now that it isn't her that brings it up!
Hoped the caps would make it stand out
But have a feeling it just makes me look like a mad shouty lady