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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to be annoyed that someone well my mother called my dd a tomboy

114 replies

spottyzebrahasthelurgy · 07/11/2008 21:27

she was wearing a dress

i don't like her being labeled tomboy

OP posts:
llareggub · 08/11/2008 16:31

I think to believe that as women we do not suffer inequality with men is to be rather naive. I should know, I carried that mantle for years, when I was young, single and working.

Now that I am a working mother I experience discrimination often. Needless to say, I look back at my younger years with an element of embarrassment.

I hadn't even thought of SGB's domestic violence and rape argument, but I was definitely of the view that because I hadn't suffered any blatant discrimination at work it didn't exist. Of course, it helped that I could work at family unfriendly hours and had no caring responsibilities.

My latest example is a school governing body that insists on meeting at 7am and won't budge. Who has childcare at 7am? So I can't attend, and can't contribute. Isn't that discriminatory? I think so.

Anyway, OP: I was a "tomboy" as defined by family and it definitely defined my childhood ways. You are right to reject it as a label, but I hope you won't restrict your DD's desire to do anything that isn't traditionally feminine.

myredcardigan · 08/11/2008 16:51

But how is the 7am governors meeting descriminating against women? It is no more a pain for a working mum who gets her kids ready in the morning than it is for a working dad who does the same. I don't get the point your making.

llareggub · 08/11/2008 17:13

Yes, but as the majority of women are still the ones who bear the brunt of the childcare arrangements, having a 7am meeting makes it proportionately more likely that women will be disadvantaged. It is well documented in employment case law.

Given that the committee comprises men who are no longer working, who have no sympathy to the predicament I am facing, it pretty much supports my point, albeit in a very small sample. And it is a bloody stupid time to hold a meeting.

myredcardigan · 08/11/2008 17:19

I agree it's a stupid time to hold a meeting. But the fact that you are responsible for childcare is down to your own family dynamics and choices. Why doesn't your DH do the childcare on the days of the once a term governors meeting? That's what would happen in my house despite the fact that DH earns far more than me and in a very high pressured long houred career. Are all the teachers retired men too?

TeenyTinyTorya · 08/11/2008 19:38

Thank you myredcardigan. I want all men and women to be treated equally, but I dislike militant feminism which is less about women's rights and more about trying to make men inferior.

LadyLaGore · 08/11/2008 19:59

er, nobody has suggested that women are superior, relax TTT and myredcardi.
read the actual words posted and then tell me where any body is asserting female superiority pls

TeenyTinyTorya · 08/11/2008 20:41

Nobody is saying (on this particular thread) that women are superior. However, SGB has made some rather man-hating comments, and when taken too far, I dislike this aspect of feminism.

myredcardigan · 08/11/2008 21:21

I didn't suggest they had, Ladylagore.

I was taking issue with the fact that they said that TTT had suggested feminism had gone too far when in fact she what she actually said was that when it is taken too far it's no better than misogyny.

myredcardigan · 08/11/2008 21:22

Sorry for lack of punctuation in that last paragraph.

LadyLaGore · 08/11/2008 23:09

which of sgb's comments were man hating? saying that women are not equal is not man hating
saying that girls are expected by society at large to be feminine and sweet is not man hating

dont get me wrong, man hating is not good. looking down on entire swathes of the population is obviously not good. but i really dont think men, in general, have anything to fear in that respect. seriously, do you see men being discriminated against? when? where?

TeenyTinyTorya · 09/11/2008 09:28

Not on this particular thread so much, LadyLaGore, but I don't want to drag anything else into it so I will leave it there.

As the mother to a ds, I feel that men and boys are discriminated against, regularly, through attitudes rather than practical ways. Girls are encouraged to go into "manly" careers, it's seen as a positive when they become engineers or scientists. They can wear whatever clothes they want. Girls are seen as high achievers in schools, and more likely to succeed.

On the other hand, boys tend to be seen as lower achievers at school, especially as the school system tends to be more suited to the style of learning that girls often adopt. Many boys learn actively, and there isn't always the opportunity for that in schools. Girls are encouraged to express their feelings, whereas boys are often suppressed and told that crying is "girly". Boys who choose to go into "feminine" careers such as hairdressing and beauty or childcare, or who do things such as ballet, are often supposed to be gay or end up being isolated because of their choices. My dh is a primary school teacher, and has found it very hard to deal with small children because of the common attitude that men are more likely to be a risk to children. It makes him feel uncomfortable in his job. Finally, boys can only wear "boy" clothes - wearing the funky, sparkly or bright coloured clothes that girls wear would make them a target for bullies.

I feel strongly about all of this, because I want my ds to grow up with a wide range of opportunities available to him. I don't want him to categorise things as "boyish" or "girly", I don't want there to be limits on his choices.

Yes, women are discriminated against in many ways. But so are men and boys, through the same ingrained attitudes that help to discriminate against women. There needs to be a large scale societal change, and I don't think that the kind of feminism where all women are right and men are usually in the wrong, is at all helpful.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/11/2008 13:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

myredcardigan · 09/11/2008 13:26

No, TTT is correct in that respect, Stewie!

As a teacher I have heard many parents and teachers express negative comments towards maleteachers who choose to teach at infant level and especially in the foundation stage.

In fact, even on my PGCE I remember a lecturer commenting on the solitary man taking the Foundation stage specialism. She said something along the lines of it makes parents uncomfortable wondering why a grown man would want to spend the day with 3 and 4 year olds and she could see their point.

Mst male primary teachers choose a junior specialism and there seems little prejudice towards that. But at infant and especially Foundation stage...
It's not right but it really is widespread.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/11/2008 13:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

myredcardigan · 09/11/2008 14:42

I don't disagree with that. I think it's a very sad state of affairs when we think that a qualified and dedicated teacher of 4yr olds must be a bit dodgy just because that teacher is male.

I posted because TTT was being misquoted as saying that feminism had gone too far.
Then I posted in response to your suggestion that the problems her DH encountered may just be present as his school when in fact it is widespread. To clarify again, I'm not talking about male teachers in the juniors or perhaps Y2 but certainly those who choose to teach nursery/Reception.

spottyzebrahasthelurgy · 09/11/2008 14:59

so to anyone that doesn't think its good for my 16month old dd to be given the label as tomboy.

how would you say it to your mum?

i was thinking of saying something like i don't like people using labels on dd its not good to pigeon hole her.

anyone else got any better ways i could say it?

OP posts:
weblette · 09/11/2008 16:16

I'm not fussed about dd being called a tomboy, what I would add is that when one of her best chums was round he decided if she was a tomboy he wanted to be a tomgirl

spottyzebrahasthelurgy · 09/11/2008 16:26

weblette or other that don't mind the tomboy label, if you had a ds would you mind him being called a nancyboy?

OP posts:
TeenyTinyTorya · 09/11/2008 22:41

My dh's problems are certainly not isolated to his school. Generally, teachers have to be careful about their behaviour around children. I trained as a nursery nurse, and now work with children in schools as an actor, and have been told that if a child tries to hug me, I am to stand with my arms out horizontally until they move away.

Dh feels uncomfortable when younger children lean against him at a circle time, or need comforting when they are upset. As a parent, his instincts are to comfort, but he is constantly having to think about how his actions will be interpreted. Female teachers and classroom assistants physically comfort young children without hesitation.

There have also been many threads on MN where people have been expressing their discomfort at male keyworkers in nursery, or male teachers. It is a widespread problem.

weblette · 10/11/2008 09:55

Nancyboy has rather different connotations to tomboy wouldn't you say? I don't find the former used particularly as a bullying or pejorative term, but the latter certainly.

TTT I find that very sad.

Bubbaluv · 10/11/2008 10:13

Would you be upset if someone said she was pretty/clever/lively/ etc etc? Language is all about labelling things/people/behaviours etc. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.

Bubbaluv · 10/11/2008 10:15

Nancyboy is mean, tomboy is not.

weblette · 10/11/2008 10:49

Doh just reread, meant them the other way round - nancyboy is pejorative not tomboy!

solidgoldbrass · 10/11/2008 12:31

TTT and co, well if you don't wnat to be equal, that's your lookout. I have never said that men are all bad or all wrong, just that men are privileged and women are still fighting for equality. Sexism, as you have pointed out, is bad for men too: it is a great shame that male teachers are treated with suspicion, and boys who want to wear bright glittery clothes are mocked and bullied.
Objecting to labels like 'tomboy' is part of improving the situation: labelling children according to a moronic and misguided obsession with 'proper' ie 'gender-appropriate' behaviour is unhealthy and perpetuates stupid attitudeds.

SixSpotBonfire · 10/11/2008 12:33

Wot Blu said (I loved being mistaken for a boy, although was pants at climbing trees ).

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