to want my muslim dh to participate in christmas?

[firstontheway]

It's never been a problem before, we've discussed what will happen when we have kids etc, and we agreed that although we will be raising little one to be muslim, one half of her family (mine) are extremely lapsed christians and therefore she can celebrate both eid and christmas. With the priviso of course that we explain what christmas is, why as muslims we do not see it as a religious event, but as a nice opportunity to visit grandparents/swap pesents/ eat nice food etc etc.

However things seem to have changed now our first baby is on the way (not even due till March!) and he seems to be backtracking a bit and suggesting it's not allowed within the islamic faith and from next year we should think about 'dropping it'. Which I understand if I was suggesting my parents took her to church or something, but they would never go against our religion like that, nor would we present it as a religious festival (at least until she is old enough to understand nativity plays etc at which point we teach religious tolerance ). Am just a bit upset as my parents would be DEVESTATED if we didn't go to them for christmas... they live a while away from us and while we see dh's parents all the time, it's really special when we see mine, and isn't family what christmas is all about anyway?

Probably a bit premature, I'm hoping he'll change his mind when we go to my parent's this year and he sees how fun and wonderful it is. But just a bit hormonal and upset.

I agree that Eid should take priority because it is a celebration of your religion but you can still mark the other religious festivals. Use it as an opportunity to spend time with your extended family and educate your children about other religions and cultures they will benefit hugely from it.

Christmas is the big festival in our house but we also do something to "celebrate" all the religious festivals. Ds is only 4 but even that age children are receptive and open to learning more about other religions and cultures.

It's not really a religious festival anymore it's for consumers, it's a celebration of materialism. I can't see how having a family gathering and visiting your parents can offend. I think it's too harsh. How does father christmas fit in with it because it really is about a little fantasy and fun for the children, it's not like you are saying father christmas is real or anything to do with religion. He's being a bit of a scrooge.

I mean we're not witches are we? Are you allowed to dress up for halloween?

Do we really want to burn Guy Fawkes? I think he's a hero actually.

I can see how you wouldn't want to get caught up in the hype though, but I can't see any harm in a little moderate acknowledgement.

Am Muslim and even though we don't celebrate Christmas with a tree, presents etc (we do the whole gift thing on Eid) we always have a family gathering on Xmas day and usually my parents/ILs will get a halal turkey and cook it with sall the trimmings for dinner. The point is - apart from the day being a celebration of being together, we acknowledge the fact that we live in England where Xmas is celebrated and that's our own ways of do something about it along our own lines, without feeling like we are compromising our religion.

A lot of the children in our family send out Xmas cards, get invovled in Xmas plays at schools, give thier friends/teachers presents as they want to feel part of the celebrations that are going on. As someone said below - you can't avoid Christmas while living in this country and it's up to you what you want to do about it.

In response to the original posting can't your partner view going away to your parent's house as a family gathering instead - maybe that might make it easier for him?

Thanks all had a chat about it with dh last night... have agreed to go and treat it as a family celebration rather than a religious one. I totally agree that the vast majority of people who celebrate xmas in Britain are not practising chritians anyway, so we will focus on the fun, family element, and use the religious side to teach little one about my side of the family and what they believe when she gets older.

Lisa123-''You are either your religion or your not. I know that sounds harsh but i think religion isnt something you can choose the good bits and leave the rest.''

You say this but then go on to express how your parents were so upset when you left your religion that they don't even see you or grandchildren which is exactly the scenario we are trying to avoid. We both want to keep our families happy, and as I said, my parents would be so devestated if we didn't spend christmas with them and at least have a token celebration. They understand that we spend Eid with DH family, so why not visit them on xmas? Considering that if we didn't, we'd only be spending a normal day the two of us in our flat, which seems very sad if my family would welcome us at their home. I'm completely comfortable in my own religion, thank you, but don't realy see how spending time with family on a certain day of the year contradicts that

Well said, firstontheway, and I really hope you have a lovely time, it all seems to be fair for both of you and for your parents too.

lisa - I am sorry to break this to you, but JW is not a religion, your wishes to see it as one notwithstanding. Christianity is the religion. JW is the small breakaway group that has a dispute with the religion over doctrine. Therefore, it is a 'sect' as defined in sociology of religion.

Please note that I didn't say 'cult', which you might feel is derogatory. I said 'sect', which JW is.

I'm afraid "I don't agree" is not a terribly convincing argument.

firstontheway - I'm happy for you that you have come to an understanding with your DH. Make sure to talk with your parents about his sensitivity re religious significance of Christmas, and hopefully your DH will come to see this visit as purely a social one and will not object to repeating it in coming years.

Do read the Quran. I think you will find quite a few sura on tolerance etc which will help you enormously in tackling future disputes of this kind.

cote, im not going to get into an agurement with you, you sound very angry. Im happy with my beliefs and refuse to get dragged into an online debate on a thread that isnt about me. Im sorry if "I dont agree" doesnt satisfy you, but i think what ever i said wouldnt be enough for you.

firstontheway, its my IL that have disowned us due to dh converting, but thats their own choice and has been heart breaking. Im hoping one day they will come around to the fact that it is our choice, and would never stop them seeing the girls if they want.

From what I understood, Lisa suggested that one shouldn't pick and choose religious traditions. I think it's a valid point and nothing to do with the fact that she's a JW.

However, her premise is that Christmas is a Christian holiday, but am not sure that this is the case anymore.

It's more of a secular winter holiday now, and something to look forward to with colder days/nights and dark by 5pm!

Thank you ilovemydog, glad someone got my point

I am an atheist and enjoy the festivities of Christmas every year!! For us it's about family.

PS. My children celebrate Eid at their school or at least observe and discuss it....they attend a small independent that is predominantly (as it should be) Christian.

Im happy for my children to learn about other religions, no issues there. They have just been learning about dewali (sp?) at school. I object when it comes to celebrating. does that make sense?

Lisa, it's a personal decision. My cousins are Orthodox Jew and I've been to their Friday night celebrations. They know I'm not Jewish, but I enjoy being around them and sharing their beliefs, even if they aren't my own.

It would probably be hypocritical of me to celebrate Hannukah. Is this what you mean about mixing religious celebrations?

yes in a way. I guess its that we believe that jesus was born in spring and we know chrsitmas has pagan roots and as such is a "false" celebration. same with bdays, easter ect. If you look at many christian celebrations many have pagan roots.
Saying that i love the lights, smells and feel of christmas, its a beutiful idea, just wish it was always like that

ilovemydog on Thu 30-Oct-08 23:24:25
"bridget 001 - would make sense that the Koran has jesus born in summer as per the Catholic calendar, the feast of the immaculate conception is the 8th of december!

Um, some one really needs to work out the maths here..."

Please correct me if I'm wrong but does not the Feast of the Immaculate Conception celebrate the conception of Mary (whom Catholics but not Protestants believe to have been immaculately conceived- only accepted as Catholic dogma in the 19th century)?

The conception of Jesus is celebrated as the Feast of Annunciation by Catholics and Protestants alike on March 25, which is exactly 9 months before Christmas- so nothing wrong with the maths.
(the idea being that the Virgin Mary conceived at the very moment when the angel Gabriel saluted her at the Annunciation)

firstontheway...I'm so glad that you managed to sort things out with your DH...he sounds like a nice guy just having a little wobble (for all the best reasons I have to add)...we all do that when babies are on the way!
Just wanted to add my support to you...I've been married 5 years, have 1 DS and very nearly (Insha'Allah) a DD. I too converted before meeting my hubby.
We celebrate Christmas for many reasons...but mainly...

1. My (very small) family are Christian...I say small as I lost some members surrounding conversion and bereavement...anyway the remainding members are christian and as they have respected my choice I respect theirs...you teach by example after all don't you?! The pen and not the sword and all that!
2. There is no way of hiding from Xmas in the UK (or anywhere else), and I don't want my son to feel excluded from such a happy festival...
3. In my opinion, the more you experience, the more you understand, the more you tolerate and respect...surely a V good thing in this day and age. We have xmas dinner, ds gets 1 gift from father xmas, and from family...nothing from us. Eid in the UK we make a big deal of...I put up lights, make lanterns, do gifts, new clothes, and a big dinner...as it's 3/4 days we also try and have a gathering for friends with their kids and do gifts for children...other friends I know do kids parties for school friends too...mines not quite old enough yet. We also try and have a special trip, somewhere fun. It's much bigger than Xmas as we make more effort, and it's twice a year Also don't feel bad about the Eid in the UK thing...we've recently moved to Saudi and had our first Eid here...it's actually quieter than the UK...I mean this is not hubbys 'home' country, and although his parents are here, most of fam including his sibs are in the uk...EVERYTHING closes, NOONE works, and most ex-pats leave! So all in all any celebration is what you make of it...Insha'Allah your DC will have many happy memories of happy times with her family. Isn't that what childhoods about?! Good luck with the pregnancy and birth...DS born in March too...he's gorgeous (gushing mummy moment lol)

firstontheway, I'm glad DH and yourself have come to a lovely and positive agreement. Good luck you have many challenges ahead. If your really lucky you'll have a lovely child who grows up to be like me Ha Ha mixed up but happy. Or like a Pakistan friend told me 'In Pakistan you are called a BBC' I replied 'Why?' she replied ' Because your British Born and Confused' We laughed (honest) I love it here you can be almost anything you like. Good luck and good fortune

just wanted to add my experience to the thread.

I am a jewish convert. My DH was always adamant that we would not celebrate xmas and definitely not have a xmas tree.

It did upset me initially. I was not a practising christian. It was more the fact xmas was such a magical time with the thick wool stockings full of presents and the xmas tree.

My feeling is that as a member of a minority religion he felt threatened by Xmas.

Now that we have DCs (4 & 2) we do what your DH has agreed to. We spend the day with my parents if we are in the UK, eating turkey, watching the queen but no xmas tree. My parents do give my children presents.

Strangely I do not want a xmas tree anymore. It would feel wrong to me.

I do worry that my children will feel that they are missing out as they grow up but my DH and my best friend (muslim) assure me that they certainly didn't.

Another Pagan / Heathen family here. We have Yuletide celebrations at the Winter Solstice. I don't have contact with my family but my in laws send presents for DS (only 16 months) which we open at our Yule celebration. We don't have anything to do with Jesus, Father Xmas, Wise Men, Figgy Pudding, Saint Valentine, Saint George, Palm Sunday, St Patrick or all the rest of it...because that isn't our faith !

As I've said on other threads, were I a christian I'd be really pissed off at the secular, commercial bunfight that Xmas Easter etc have become. Everyone and his dog feel obliged to celebrate with no real sense of the meaning. When I still worked the boss brought in hot cross buns at Easter (which I refused) and one bloke held his aloft and said "happy birthday Jesus!" FFS !!

For what it's worth I received good friendship and support from the only other person in that office who refused to participate in the Xmas/Easter/St Patrick goings on - A JW man. He believed I was going straight to hell, but it didn't stop him being courteous and fun . It helped not to be the only oddball !

IMO YABU - if you've converted to Islam you should stick to Muslim festivals. Go and see your family on 27th or 28th December and swap gifts instead to make it clear. You can't have your spiritual cake and eat it.

not rude, just interested -were you born pagan/ heathen or did you chose to become one?

Chose to become one - have been for nearly 6 years. I am of a more Heathen leaning, following the Norse tradition. My DH describes himself as an eclectic occultist. We celebrate the Pagan festivals together as a family - it's been Samhain for us today but we've missed out as my little one has got a dreadful stomach bug so that's why I'm MNing !! [weary face]