To think that having a drug free natural child birth does not mean you are a better/ stronger person or have more guts

[Reallytired]

Every childbirth experience is different. I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief. It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4459880.stm

People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.

I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications. There are no prizes for putting up with pain.

I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types. Sometimes its the best decision.

The pointy toenails thing actually wasn't a lie - like tiny razor blades, ouch.
Although I can't say I noticed them when I was pushing him out really More his great big head!

My DS's birth was pretty horrendous with 7 weeks in hospital followed by 2 days of inducing then 24 hour labour. The epidural did make everything worse and ended up in theatre ready for an emergency cs after a failed venteuse and a last attempt at forceps which worked.

2 yrs later DD decided to put in an early appearance at 37 weeks and didn't give me much of a chance for anything but one whiff of gas and air which made me throw up everywhere, so went through the whole thing with no pain relief. It was so much more a positive experience for me. My instinct was to walk and walk, which i couldn't do with the epidural.
Not that I am every going to do it again, but I would never have an epidural again and I am a huge whimp when it comes to anything medical.

With DS1 I had an epidural, and felt like a failiure afterward, and thought "OMG how can I tell the NCT group"

I have also had a drug free birth, which was nothing to do with me being better/stronger/having more guts.

I don't feel big or clever for having a pain free/drug free birth, but I do feel incredibly lucky.

I didn't have any drugs because I didn't need them. I was lucky not to need them.

Rant over.

YANBU. But ha-bloody-ha. I didn't know anyone - quite literally anyone - who hadn't had masses of intervention, emcs, etc. etc. So when I had a pain-relief-free home birth, it was me that felt embarrassed talking about it. I didn't want any of my acquaintances who had, e.g., emcs to feel like I was judging them by telling them about my birth story. On the contrary, if I do get pressed to talk about it, I go on and on about how lucky I was, how it could have gone another way, etc. Where the hell are those smug women of whom the OP speaks? Maybe I'd like to meet one so that I can talk about my birth experience without feeling guilty for once...

I gave birth in a Spanish hospital both times and there was no pain relief avaliable except epidural. (...and the epidural rate was 90-something%)
Since I really didn't fancy having something injected into my spinal cord I gave birth with no pain relief both times.
And it bloody hurt, and I am proud of myself.
If gas and air had been avaliable I would have used it tho...

purplejennyrose - you sound very similar to me. I see everything to do with birth as a sort of spiritual adventure - whatever happens. I found my first birth completely fascinating and exciting - the vomiting, the crying, the hallucinations, the instruments, the blood splashed across the floor. I remember DH looking pale (or rather, ashy, given he's west indian) and saying 'it looked like you were being turned inside out' when describing watching me being given an episiotomy. As far as I was concerned it was all grist to the mill. Yes - I do think pragmatic is a good word for it.

"I don't agree, I think you should count your luck (that everything went as it should) and hope it continues."

No - it's not always down to 'luck' that you manage without pain relief. I had a stinking labour with my third. I coped without pain relief because I'm stoical. Sorry. I know that's not fashionable these days.

I'm sorry but that's utter bullshit.

Fabsmum - "the very wide disparities in intervention rates you find between groups of women cared for by doulas compared with those who are not receiving continuous care" Do you have links to these studies? Also, how do you define continuous care?

I've never felt the need to brag or belittle anyone regarding their delivery. As time goes on I hardly notice such discussions, just not interesting; well, apart from ocasionally on MN, obviously

It is a matter of luck to some extent. You have little or no control over whether or not you have a breech baby, or shoulder distocia, or a sudden placental abruption, or any of the other complications that mean you need immediate medical attention otherwise either you or the baby might well die. Having the right aromatherapy oil or chanting the proper whalesongs or whatever may well make a non-problem labour and birth feel better, but 'mental attitude' will do fuck all for a medical emergency.

I still maintain that it can be just down to luck. I am not brave, I didn't have an elaborate birth plan or a view of how it was going to be-I had the idea that I might have whatever offered. It just so happened that the first time I was too late to be offered anything by the time they examined me, except gas and air. The second one was too fast and with the third one, when they finally examined me, I was desperate to push and she said I could and he was born! I call it lucky when you hear other people's stories. DS2 might have been difficult as he was breech, but he turned at the last minute.
I don't have many natural talents in life but I get pregnant the first time I try and I enjoy the childbirth experience. If I had lived in my great grandmother's day I would probably have had about 20 children and popped them like peas! It doesn't make me better, stronger or superior. The really brave are those who have the long labours and difficult births.

Has anyone said that they didn't need medical interventions such as an ecs because of anything they did? No, not once on this thread. We are talking about straight forward, vaginal deliveries, with labours of varying lengths (I think I am "winning" so far on that) and necessity for straight forward stitching/episiostomy or not as the case may be).

Some woman are proud of the fact that they managed to cope with that without pain relief. There is nothing wrong with that
at all. There is of course something wrong with looking down on people who didn't manage it.

The ones that had to have pain relief are the ones that I look up to! They are the ones who had difficult births and are the brave ones. I wouldn't have liked to have gone through a long and difficult labour.

Well, it depends. I had a nice 'n easy birth and don't think I am stronger than anyone. My younger sister had a 40+ hour, full on labour, back to back baby, meconium in the water so constant monitoring, natural drug-free labour.

Do I think she is a stronger/has more guts than me? You bet!

Some people who don't have pain relief have difficult births too. Just because someone manages without pain relief doesn't mean it was easy. Some people have straightforward births and need an epidural to cope. I'm not looking down on them, I just don't like my experience being belittled like this. I did not have an easy birth.

(No, I don't want a medal, the MW already gave me one)

"I'm sorry but that's utter bullshit"

No it's not. And it's true in case of illness as well as childbirth. For various reasons some people will tolerate things that other people are not prepared to tolerate. I was prepared to tolerate a large amount of unpleasantness in labour because, unlike many other people I know who don't think it's a big issue, I had a very strong aversion to my babies receiving pethidine or fentanyl (through an epidural).

"It is a matter of luck to some extent. You have little or no control over whether or not you have a breech baby, or shoulder distocia, or a sudden placental abruption, or any of the other complications that mean you need immediate medical attention otherwise either you or the baby might well die. Having the right aromatherapy oil or chanting the proper whalesongs or whatever may well make a non-problem labour and birth feel better, but 'mental attitude' will do fuck all for a medical emergency"

You know arguments like this make me really cross, because they're based on the false premise that there are people out there actually making a case that 'having the right aromatherapy oil' can make a difference to outcomes when it comes to something like shoulder dystocia or placental abruption. Actually - as you well know, nobody - nobody - would be or has been stupid enough to suggest anything of the sort. Why use an argument like this except to try to ridicule someone and wrongfoot them. It's like 'sheesh - these natural childbirth idiots - they think that all problems in childbirth can be resolved by chanting or having a positive attitude'. Well actually they don't, and it's insulting to suggest that they do.

In any case, the only significance of pain relief (which is what we were talking about) to cases such as you mentioned is that they make immediate c-section under regional anaesthesia possible, so a mum who had any of these complications wouldn't have to go under a G/A (not diminishing the importance of this).

Ironically though, having an epidural is the one thing that would make the complcations you mention above more of a problem - epidural anaesthesia immobilises mothers and makes SD more of a likelyhood, and if it happens, more difficult to resolve with simple manouvres. And the signs of placental abruption can be masked by epidural anaesthesia too.

And by the way - I had a fairly significant shoulder dystocia at my second birth, which was an unmedicated homebirth. One of the other reasons I didn't want an epidural for this birth is that I knew SD was more of a risk for me because I was carrying a large baby. The fact that the SD happened in a home environment and was resolved simply and quietly by two well trained midwives I think is part of the reason why I didn't come away from the birth traumatised. Almost all the people I know who've had this happen to them in hospital have had horrible experiences, with alarms going off, medics rushing into the room, big episiotomies and a general air of panic around the time of delivery.

SGthingy said 'It is a matter of luck to some extent. You have little or no control over whether or not you have a breech baby, or shoulder distocia, or a sudden placental abruption, or any of the other complications that mean you need immediate medical attention otherwise either you or the baby might well die. Having the right aromatherapy oil or chanting the proper whalesongs or whatever may well make a non-problem labour and birth feel better, but 'mental attitude' will do fuck all for a medical emergency.'

something we agree on. My homebirth was unmedicated and as natural as can be. But it brain damaged dd for no apparent reason. And I've still had people ask what I did or didn't do.
Well fuck off, its luck. No amount of positive attitude or chanting or anything would have stopped that brain damage. It happenend because of birth. Birth sometimes brain damages babies and its luck as to whose baby. Nothing you can do (except have a CS. If I'd had a CS dd would be ok) can stop it.

"the very wide disparities in intervention rates you find between groups of women cared for by doulas compared with those who are not receiving continuous care" Do you have links to these studies? Also, how do you define continuous care?

I could find them for you.

In the meantime - from the NICE guidelines on caesarean section (you can look in the Quick reference guide - it's in the section on 'Reducing the Likelihood of CS'

here

"Women should be informed that continuous support during labour from women with or without prior training reduces the likelyhood of caesarean section"

It seems like the only way to get continuous care is to hire a doula or have a homebirth (as the MW is trapped at your house!)

My first MW did not spend much time with me at all, coming back every few hours to see how I was progressing, and being v dissapointed in me when I didn't progress quickly enough. It was better after the shift changed, but I was v demoralised by then, which I think had an impact on how the rest of the labour went.

I've read the first few posts.

NMC, I'd be furious in your shoes.

Custy that's inspired

Basically I agree with Pruners.

I don't think you're a better person for it but it can empower you.

Fwiw I hated my natural birth, well I hated the medicalised one too, but both hurt and had their bad side. Birth is pretty sore whichever way you do it.

But the difference was that after the first one I felt I had 'cheated' and after the second I got a lot of 'respect' from various people for doing it without anything (not even G&A).

I only refused the G&A because I didn't reckon it would touch the state I was in! I was begging for an epidural. There wasn't time though.

So in retrospect, yes I got my 'no holds barred' experience, so I have exorcised that 'failure' demon but really I shoudln't have had the feeling of having cheated in the first place. I don't know why I did. Perhaps other factors in my own self image. I hated feeling like I'd done it that way, not the 'proper' way.

It does feel like a sort of 'club' when you've experienced it without any sort of blocking of the pain, no idea why - I suppose like people who have jumped off tall buildings might feel a sense of comradeship (if they are still alive that is!)

ho hum...

Far too many '''''' in that post

Fwiw both my labours were very short, and I have utter, utter respect for women who have had to go on and on for 30 hours or whatever and then ended up having a section.

that would have killed me I think.

chibi, if you look at the Royal College of Midwives website they have the top 8 tips for midwives to help them raise rates of normal birth.

Right at the top of the list is:

"Wait and See: The practice most likely to help a woman have a normal birth is patience"

Shame so many midwives like yours are in a rush to deliver the baby, and transmit their negative feelings to the women they're caring for.

You can get one to one care in birth centres though, as well as at home.

hmmm I had dd in a midwife led unit + ended up with an emCS. I don't think I would be allowed to use a birth center next time, having had a CS. Moot point anyway, am not yet pregnant!

I think birth is like anything else - you don't know how you'll be til you do it. It is very important to prepare/find things out etc but this isn't a guarantee or insurance of how it will be. Of course, there are all the other factors too - who is/isn't supporting you, environment etc.

FWIW I am quite stoical too - had kidneystones last year + passed one about 4 mm in diameter, all sans pain relief. The pain was much worse than labour too! I found labour overwhelming though, and for a variety of reasons felt disempowered...this contributed in a big way to how it all turned out.

It is patronising to say to women who laboured with no pain relief that they had less painful/easy labours, but on the other side of it it is hard to listen to someone's fantastic experience without hearing it as a comment on your own less than good one.

I remember a similar thread last year when the whole thing was still raw for me where I think I was quite harsh, even rude to another MNer because of this.

At any rate, I feel like I would have a much better birthing experience next time, knowing what I know now. I may be kidding myself though!

at the start of my post I meant hmmmm as in 'hmmm let me see' not