To think that having a drug free natural child birth does not mean you are a better/ stronger person or have more guts

[Reallytired]

Every childbirth experience is different. I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief. It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4459880.stm

People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.

I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications. There are no prizes for putting up with pain.

I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types. Sometimes its the best decision.

TB, LOL - I think this should go as the disclaimer at the top of AIBU: "But hey - sometimes people just are a bit silly or tactless."

I agree with Cory never felt the birthing process was about me but getting out 3 healthy alive children.

It took me 7 years to have my twins(IVF) then dd(natural) never felt any difference re their conceptions, giving birth wasn't any different.

After battling for so long and loosing precious embryos along the way there was no way I was going to risk loosing any of them. As a result of this I have 3 dc and have never felt a single labour pain thanks to 2 planned c/s.

All 3 of mine were breech.After facing childlessness in the face for several years mourning a birth you never had seems a little self indulgent if you have a healthy baby at the end of it. So I didn't get to do it 'au naturel" so what,my 3 children are here,healthy and I'm very,very happy.

I think the thing with it is that your birth experience is personal to you. What works for one person will cause flashbacks and post traumatic stress for another.

What is best is if we don't judge each other or make disparaging "Jeez, if I could do it, why can't you?" type remarks.

I think many times Hunkermunker good birth experiences are due to extensive research and battles (my second was) which improves outcomes significantly.

People who have that experience can sometimes make judgements about whether intervention i.e epidural, was actually REALLY necessary for another person had they had the relevant info and support they 'deserved'.

Now, upon hearing a birth story that was traumatic, that appeared to be the result of some dodgy decisions would you mention this, or keep quiet?

I have personally heard people refer to their own happy natural births as a way of sensitively implying that said BAD decisions were potentially made in someone elses more traumatic birth - possibly to suggest it wasn't their fault - but imo it does sound rather smug, - rather like when bfers point out that someone who tried to bf and is upset that they couldn't, actually probably could!

I still think that cory has the most sensible comment. It is about having a healthy baby-whether you felt strong or empowered doesn't really matter. The next 18yrs or longer are far more important.

no, I agree with hunker. I think it's personal to each individual. And no two births are the same either. When I had my CS, I didn't feel as if I gave birth at all; I felt as though I'd had an operation. It didn't matter to me, because I knew that if was necessary to save my daughter's life.

In contrast, my first pregnancy was entirely straightforward and I had a natural birth. I think I would have felt pretty disappointed if I'd ended up with medical interventions because they weren't necessary for the baby.

So, two quite different birth experiences but each one was right for that particular baby and therefore I felt right about them.

I agree findtheriver but sometimes it's not clear cut whether it was medically necessary or not - e.g. DS was induced at 15 days over, and I don't respond well to artificial hormones for some reason so they had to keep the drip up really high.

I had an epidural to cope with the pain about 5 or 6 hours in (you see, I'm already justifying it to myself by saying they needed to keep the drug level high ) but then was completely immobile on the bed for the rest of the labour.

DS's head was badly positioned and I dilated only on one side, then he got kaput on his head and my cervix started swelling up. We left it as long as we could but then the doctor advised a C-section.

So by then a c-section was medically necessary....but what if I'd refused to be induced and`waited for labour to happen naturally? what if I'd been more of a trooper and not had the epidural and stayed mobile? what if I'd had pethidine instead of an epidural? would DS' head have righted itself?

So far from being certain that it was medically necessary, I question my choices every time I think about it.

There will always be grey areas, DancingwiththeDevil. Childbirth isn't an exact science, and also different hospitals and consultants will vary in their practice. It's common knowledge that some hospitals have much higher CS rates than others for example.

I think all you can do is try to access as much information as possible beforehand, do as much as you can within your power to arrange to give birth somewhere you feel comfortable - and then at least you know that you've done all you can to set the scene for a positive experience. But even then, the unknown can happen.

My CS was pretty straightforward as my DD was very prem and small and also breech, and VB wasn't even mentioned as an option. The consultant told me the baby needed to be born that day. So I respected his expertise and went with the decision.

For my first birth, after researching the options, I booked into my local midwife-led unit because everything was straightforward, and I didn't want an epidural or indeed any drugs if possible. The advantage of going locally was that I knew the group of midwives who worked there from my clinic appointments so I knew with certainly that whatever time of day or night I went into labour, i would have a known midwife with me.

In contrast, my third birth was the least satisfying. it was a VBAC (which I was pleased to achieve, as there was no medical reason for having another CS, which statstically does carry a higher risk). But what upset me was that having had the CS I no longer had the option of delivering in a midwife-led unit and had to deliver in a large impersonal hopsital with numerous midwives and doctors coming and going. It certainly confirmed for me that a 'good' birth does not necessarily mean a pain free or easy one. It is more to do with knowing that you have achieved the right birth for that particular baby.

"It is more to do with knowing that you have achieved the right birth for that particular baby. " - unfortunately, I am far from certain of this.

"The evangelical people are the ones who try to tell me how I ought to be feeling."

I tend to avoid evangelical people as a matter of principle. It doesn't matter what they are evangelising about - God, Jehovah, Flat Earth, NCT, the rather cute hare krishnas that used to hang out in Soho, whatever. Makes my blood run cold, actually.

It's that thing of being blinkered by (self) belief actually. Moral certitude.

Fuck off to all evangelists.

fabsmum on Mon 20-Oct-08 10:42:45

"Cory, I know that there are lots of people here with a big downer on the NCT. ... Has it ever occured to you that the insensivity some people show about other people's births and their feelings might not.... ahem..... actually be linked to the fact that they have some involvement with the NCT, such as they've joined one of their postnatal groups, attending their classes, or read one of their leaflets in passing, and might be down to who they are as people. You could quite as readily say 'My Cosmopolitan reading friend', or 'My friend who shops at Waitrose', or 'My friend who buys an organic veg box'. Unless of course you're trying to imply that her having any connection with the NCT is somehow instrumental in her being an insensitive plank about your births?"

Well, if she had kept telling me that I would have had a natural healthy birth experience if only I shopped at Waitrose or ate enough organic vegetables- then I would have mentioned it!

But what she kept telling us was that if we had only attended the NCT ante-natal courses everything would have been totally different and we would have been empowered to have a different birth experience. Err...no.. I still had a choice between medical intervention and losing my baby. So did the woman next to me on the ward, who had already born two dead babies because of a lack of medical intervention in her home town: only when they sent her on to a big teaching hospital was it discovered that she had lupus and was totally unable to bear live babies without masses of medical intervention. No amount of information would have changed our needs.

I do not have a downer on the NCT; in fact, I ran an NCT group for years. I just resent the suggestion that my problems were all in the mind and that more information would have enabled me to somehow magically transcend the shortcomings of my body.

As it happens, the hospital ante-natal course I did attend was excellent, run by a highly experienced midwife who had both given birth herself and attended hundreds of births. But I had several friends (not just the one) suggesting that only through doing the NCT course could a woman be in proper control of her birth, and that any woman who did not must not be surprised if her birth was less than natural.

"I start from the position of seeing childbirth as a business where there's a profound interplay between the woman's thoughts and emotions and the normal physiology of birth. Allowing women to behave instinctively, giving them freedom of movement, respecting their privacy, allowing them some autonomy, not intervening unless absolutely necessary, plays a very, very important part when it comes to enabling mothers to give birth without needing medical help."

Nice for the women who can; that's fine and noone would grudge it to them. But there is always going to be a fair percentage of us who cannot give birth safely without medical help. When it really becomes a life and death matter, then your emotions do tend to take second place. Or rather, you realise that there are emotions that are a good deal worse than having a traumatic birth experience. I saw enough of the thoughts and emotions of the woman who had lost her two. I saw her again after giving birth and that radiance had nothing to do with the birth experience as such- everything to do with finally cuddling a living child.

" By AbbeyA on Mon 20-Oct-08 19:44:46
I still think that cory has the most sensible comment. It is about having a healthy baby-whether you felt strong or empowered doesn't really matter. The next 18yrs or longer are far more important."

But your birth experience colours those years, informs how you parent - if your very first experience of being a mum is a very traumatic one, it can be hard to move beyond that. Not because people like dwelling or are weak. But perhaps people who believe this think war veterans with shell shock were "making an unnecessary fuss and should be very grateful to be alive".

The only thing about my first birth experience that was traumatic was the lack of medical intervention. Thirteen hours without so much as gas and air, despite begging for some.

That's the thing about evangelists - they all want you to do the thing that they want to do on the basis that it will save your soul. A bit of live and let live would be nice.

I'm not sure if I am repeating anyone else here, but, as its DS's third birthday and I have been thinking about his birth today, the wise words of my doctor spring to mind. I felt awful about having to have an emergency C-section, despite the fact I may well have died without it. She told me "You don't get a medal for the way you give birth, you nurtured this baby in your body, which is a totally amazing thing to be able to do and its what happens after that is important, not how he got here."

My 1st few moments of being a mum were traumatic as was my mothers. She nearly died (as did I) and didn't see me for 2 days. I was handed 2 squalling babies, left with a throbbing c/section scar and a terrified dp whilst the midwives buggared off.

We both got over it,being grateful for a baby that is alive enables you to do that. I think women are fed far too much fairy tale clap trap which makes them feel cheated over something they would probably never have had anyway.

If women are really going to spend the rest of their parenting years mourning the single day they gave birth and letting it affect the way they parent they really need a reality check.

of course milamae, because birth trauma, PND and PTSD are just down to women being plain silly, they should get a grip, and be bloody grateful they and their babies are alive shouldn;t they?

if you had a difficult time, surely some empathy for others would not go amiss

it is not fairy tale claptrap that women are fed.. it is about the policies of hospital robbing a lot of women of the chance to at least try for the birth they want. about doctors who scare women into making a decision by telling them their baby will die. about caregivers who ignore requests for pain relief, refuse to allow women to change position to give birth, who insist on breaking waters/ giving synto if labour is not going to their timetable

get angry and frustrated with those people, not the women suffering at their hands

I agree with Hunker to some extent, and new mothers often do appear to be shell-shocked. But unless they develop PND or other serious problems, IME most people move away within 3 or 4 years. Because, let's face it, it's not the last scary thing that's going to happen to us as mothers... It gets superseded by other traumas, a lot of which are worse.

Accidents, serious illnesses, bullying, falling in love with the wrong person, choosing the wrong profession, being tempted by drugs- there's always things to worry about.

Since those two birth experiences, which were admittedly not ideal, I have also experienced:

looking down on my unconscious child in a hospital bed and seeing the consultant shaking his head over her

having a child tested for a condition which makes young people literally drop dead

having to deal with a child who is traumatised by the murder of a friend

having to help a child through the realisation that she will be permanently disabled

then, after years of this, realising that my second child is showing symptoms of the same condition...

And that's before they're even old enough to fall in love or start taking drugs!!!

My experiences are of course unique to me, but I think there are few mothers who never have heart-stopping moments of pure fear, once their babies are out of their bodies.

On the other hand, now that a few years have passed, it is not the thought of my pushing one of them out that makes me feel I really am a mother. It is:

watching my tall and handsome son come running up to me glowing with pride because he has finally scored a goal at football

soothing dd when she is in pain and knowing that my presence does more for her than the painkillers

sharing a story with them and knowing in advance which bit is going to make them laugh

seeing them venture into the world and knowing that at least some of their confidence comes from having had a caring and happy home

remembering a little voice that once said to me, through the pouring rain, on a cold and miserable afternoon: 'you are the right Mummy for me'

How about doctors trying to save babies lives. I will be forever grateful for the doctors who worked so hard to give me 3 healthy babies.

I had PND I have empathy for women who have had it but not for women who let a single day cloud the way they parent for years to come.

I didn't conceive,give birth too or feed my lot the way I would have liked but they are here and healthy so I focus on that instead of poor me. I know so many women still battling to become mothers they are the women I have real empathy for.

That's a lovely post Cory.

well I'm glad you got over it milamae.
perhaps you'd like to tell various member of my dh's family about your cool 'reality check' approach to psychology? maybe my dh's mum who developed such bad postnatal depression that she was sectioned and had electric shock therapy. all because her labour was so appallingly mismanaged she believed she had given birth to a dead baby and wasn't told #til the next day# that the baby (my dh) was actually fine. I expect she probably should have been grateful and full of thanks but hey, silly woman had a breakdown instead.
or maybe my dh's aunt who had a very similar experience (how wonderful the old days were ) except she had a very emergency c section. she still wells up talking about the whole thing 30 years later. silly cow, hey??

very

right, going to wander off and calm down now aaaaaaaaaargh

Lol Quattro. The only thing that was traumatic about my DS2 birth was my shouting match with the midwife to "get the fecking doctor asap" and her shouting back "one more push and he's out". Er, no, I'm small, husband's big with a huge head and the children take after him (38cm heads). The penny finally dropped when baby's heartbeat dropped after 3 hours in second stage. When I did get my episiotemy the baby shot out like a bullet, otherwise I don't think he would ever have got out or perhaps with a 4th degree tear for me.

Morocco, the psychology aspect of a bad birth experience/PND is interesting. I've heard that simply allowing someone who has PTSD to talk and talk about their experience is an effective healing method in itself, whereas apparently focusing on the good things and writing "gratitude lists" is also a means of combating depression, which seems a bit contradictory.

I think what used to irritate me about the childbirth site on MN was the presumption that a woman could only feel empowered with a natural birth, whereas I felt very much in control with a team of medics around me.

Probably very late in joining this and have only read a few posts from the start. No, you are not being unreasonable to think that those who have had a natural birth are stronger etc but do think that you are being so by assuming that women are being "bullied" into having a natural birth by NCT types. Lots from our group have had CS. What is your point? Who are these women who are being bullied or bullying?

BTW what is your definition of an "easy birth experience"?

I had natural births with both dcs but I would not say it was easy in my opinion and no I didn't get the birth experience that I wanted either so of course you have to ditch the birth plan when something goes wrong. IME one is not really in a state to make the most rational of decisions midst contraction and pushing.

'If women are really going to spend the rest of their parenting years mourning the single day they gave birth and letting it affect the way they parent they really need a reality check.'

I agree.
Mothers can get PND after a perfectly straightforward birth. I can imagine people mourning the rest of their lives if they don't have a healthy baby, but if they have a healthy baby they need to move on. If they can't do that they need to seek professional help. It shouldn't colour the way they parent.
It isn't important to me whether my mother had a straightforward birth with me or not, I certainly don't care whether she felt empowered or not, but I would mind if she wasn't a very good mother because the experience wasn't as she hoped!

"But what she kept telling us was that if we had only attended the NCT ante-natal courses everything would have been totally different and we would have been empowered to have a different birth experience. Err...no.. I still had a choice between medical intervention and losing my baby."

Sorry - but this has got everything to do with your friend and fck all to do with the NCT. No NCT teacher would tell you that you didn't need medical intervention or that you shouldn't have it. Your friend doesn't represent the NCT so why are you holding her* comments against it?

And comparing the NCT to the JW's.... It makes me wonder whether you have ever read any NCT literature or understand what the aims of the organisation are. The NCT are not evangelical about women not having interventions: they're evangelical about women having safe, healthy births and about women and babies being treated humanely in labour. All the things that the NCT raises concerns about - midwife shortages, dirty and poorly designed birth environments, lack of obstetric cover in hospitals, lack of continuity of care, are things that directly affect the health of mothers and babies.

"No amount of information would have changed our needs"

I'm sorry - but this is simply not true in the case of some of our clients. Women come to their NCT classes with all sorts of medical concerns and worries that they've not been able to get answers to from their care-givers because of a lack of continuity of care. Many NCT teachers are skilled and experienced midwives, and others are not midwives but are able to help mothers to track down the information and support they need to find a way forward. I know my classes help women to get the best out of what is sometimes a very unweildy NHS - we do have an advocacy role which I think is very important. Some NCT teachers accompany their clients to consultant meetings or use their connections at local hospitals to put their clients in touch with senior midwifery staff who can help them when there are serious concerns surrounding an impending labour which haven't been addressed through the mums ordinary antenatal appointments.

"I do not have a downer on the NCT; in fact, I ran an NCT group for years. I just resent the suggestion that my problems were all in the mind and that more information would have enabled me to somehow magically transcend the shortcomings of my body."

Yes - but what has this got to do with the NCT? No NCT teacher would tell you that your problems were 'all in the mind' or imply that more information would have made a massive difference to the outcome of your labour. Why are you blaming the NCT for opinions which do not belong to them?

"But I had several friends (not just the one) suggesting that only through doing the NCT course could a woman be in proper control of her birth, and that any woman who did not must not be surprised if her birth was less than natural."

Again - this has everything to do with your friend and nothing to do with the NCT.

Would want to add though, that being a midwife and being experienced in delivering babies doesn't necessarily make you a good antenatal teacher. I attended NHS classes myself (couldn't afford NCT classes - had no idea they were subsidised) taught by midwives and TBH they didn't teach me anything I hadn't already learned from reading books, except about the importance of complying with hospital protocols.

"Nice for the women who can; that's fine and noone would grudge it to them. But there is always going to be a fair percentage of us who cannot give birth safely without medical help. When it really becomes a life and death matter, then your emotions do tend to take second place."

No - you are quite wrong. Women who are experiencing medically complicated births deserve just as sensitive care as any other woman. I have known plenty of women who've had complex medical needs - type 1 diabetes, pre-existing cardiac problems, fybromyalgia, pre-eclampsia. Those women have better outcomes for birth and are emotionally more robust postnatally when they have been treated with sensitivity in labour and when care has been taken to try to disrupt the physiological process any more than necessary (obviously within the bounds of safety).

Just one example: two mums from one group - both with pre-eclampsia, both induced, both continuously monitored. One mother was just told firmly to stay on the bed and not move (might disrupt the trace) while the midwife fannied about in and out of the room for long stretches of the labour. The other was continuously supported by a brilliant student midwife who kept the pads in place while keeping her upright sitting on a ball next to the monitor so she wasn't completely immobilised, and kept her calm and comfortable. She coped without an epidural, had a shorter labour (maybe because she didn't spend the labour lying on her back) and a normal birth. The second mum became extremely distressed because she was so uncomfortable lying on her back. She had an epidural, and about an hour after it was sited the baby's heartbeat plummeted and staff rushed into the room. They moved her and the baby's heartbeat picked up - they suggested that the baby had moved and compressed the cord, but of course because she was immobilised she needed the staff to move her in order to help shift the baby. She became very panicky and upset. She had a ventouse birth and baby was taken off to special care for monitoring (he'd passed meconium during second stage). She's been left very, very unhappy about the birth, said it was excruciatingly painful and cannot get over the panic she experienced when she thought her baby was seriously compromised.

In other words (sorry for long post), acknowledging and working with the normal physiology of birth is significant for all women in labour, even women whose births are being medically managed. Obviously there are some situations where very swift, surgical intervention is absolutely vital to save a baby, but the majority of high risk women DO experience labour - they still deserve to be given every chance to get their babies out as quickly and easily as possible. There doesn't have to be a conflict here - if a woman has continuous care from an experienced and confident midwife there are simple ways of making the birth easier for her that don't impinge on her safety or her baby's.

Would want to add - my own births were complicated and I was a 'high risk' pregnancy (gestational diabetes and macrosomia). I've always felt that if I'd gone for a medically managed birth with my second child there's a good chance the birth would have ended in disaster. I only just managed to force out my 11 lb son with the help of two skilled midwives. If I'd had an epidural I honestly cannot see how he could have been safely born - given that I had a shoulder dystocia. Because I hadn't had an epidural I had a good degree of mobility in second stage - I was able to quickly get myself from a kneeling position onto my back (oh yes - even with a giant baby's head hanging out between my legs!) and hold my own legs so they could do a MacRoberts on me (yikes!).

TBH I think this thread has become quite weird. It's like there are two separate conversations going on here. There are those people who think that having care in labour which takes into account the physiology of birth is key to having a healthy birth, and there are those people who either don't understand or don't accept this rationale, who keep insisting that it's just a nice optional 'extra' for neurotic, self-centred people who put their own feelings ahead of their babies' safety. It's a bit sad really.