To think that having a drug free natural child birth does not mean you are a better/ stronger person or have more guts

[Reallytired]

Every childbirth experience is different. I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief. It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4459880.stm

People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.

I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications. There are no prizes for putting up with pain.

I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types. Sometimes its the best decision.

So what did you conclude after your 2nd birth MM?

dc2 is due in Jan.

My 'perfect' birth would involve (baby and me being fine!), me feeling empowered and proud of my strengths and of the fabulousness giving birth has helped me find in myself.

It is more difficult, though, to feel proud of yourself when you've not had the birth that society generally seems to value.
I am surprised if other women have not felt that birthing can be competitive. Not sure if the pressure comes from other mothers, but it comes from somewhere.
I've definitely experienced competitiveness, sometimes a 'who had the most challenging birth', sometimes 'who had the easiest birth', sometimes 'who is the strongest'. A lot of it is implicit, but it is most certainly there...

At the same time, I think some women are and will be 'better' at coping with the challenges of labour than I am. Their bodies may be more suited to it, and/or they may be mentally stronger.
Those women may well have more of a right to feel they managed better than I. I guess being happy with how I manage in the context of who I am is all I can hope for...

'I guess being happy with how I manage in the context of who I am is all I can hope for'

Spot on, Spink. And being allowed to acknowledge that happiness/pride afterwards would be nice?

Yep, that too..

.. but let's be realistic

Personally I think everyone's pain perception and threshold differs as does each individual birth experience.

I remember my first 2 labours as being very painful and I was writhing on the bed on the normal ward by 5cm and couldn't stop myself. I had some gas and air for those 2 but not much as they took it away from me. I pushed for under 20 mins with my first after a couple hour labour, 2nd was shorter labour but 2 hours pushing with baby getting distressed and endeding up delivering with my feet in stirrups about to be cut to pull him out and about 8 people in the room.

My 3rd was by far the most painful and I thought I was going to die, I was begging them to help me and asking them why they weren't helping me. He was back to back but it was still fast. They said that was why it hurt so much as I didn't get time to build up and that it was very intense. It was so bad, I had gas and air again for a short time when they tried 5 times to put a clip on his head as his heart rate went down a lot.

I gave birth with my feet in stirrups again and again about to be cut as he was distressed and needed to get out fast, lots of people in the room. I was so scared for him at that point but I can still remember the pain. It wasn't nice, pleasant or anything like that.

I am glad that I didn't have any other pain relief but the main reasons for that being that I have a needle phobia and also I don't take any painkillers for anything usually, I always feel weird about taking anything.

I don't feel better than someone that did have painkillers though, I'm just pleased that I got through it the way I did for me, not for anyone else and not to anyone else's detriment.

All best wishes for January, for the 'perfect' birth ! (might be wise not to acknowledge its perfection on here,

thanks independiente

Wow, this thread has galloped on from where I found it on Fri!!
Fabsmum, lulumama - agree with everything you've said...
I think the point about different people experiencing pain differently and in different situations hits the nail on the head really. It is pretty impossible to describe our pain and other sensory experiences to others in a way that reliably conveys the reality.
Was going to say lots of other things but think I will leave it there - think it's mostly been said!!

As I said - I'm stoical. I had councelling, I had battles, I researched, I frightened the PCT into ensuring/guaranteeing a fab mw and access to a pool, I hired a doula, I wrote a 7 page birth plan.

I KNEW I was going to be happy with this birth however it turned out but I improved my chances of 'luck' where I could and I'm very proud of that.

I 'thought' that was what I was doing the first time, but knew nothing of hospital policy agendas, that mlu were all talk, that pools are theoretical and that epidurals are rationed.

The pain itself was quite probably less, it being my second, (and my first being a suspected but undiagnosed back-2-back). In addition my planning meant I wasn't afraid or fighting the contractions, so my experience of pain was less iyswim.

The mw told me I had a high pain threshold which doesn't fit well with experience no.1.

My conclusion, based on MY experience is that I agree pain level differ between people and contexts/births. In addition, preparation and environment play an important role in our ability to deal with the pain and finally some people are 'luckier' than others that these things come together in a more favourable way.

However, I am still very proud of myself for the efforts I went to to'improve' my luck chances and am finally proud of myself for 'surviving' the first experience albiet a little that with decent care it may not have been quite so traumatic.

BTW: I lied - I had a couple of sucks on gas and air at crowning

Mmmm, perhaps stoical isn't the right word.....

I am of the school that believes that women should have the childbirth experience that they want to have.

Which for me was an entirely different experience from the one that the hospitals wanted me to have. It was also a far cry from the childbirth experience the NCT wanted me to have.

I have some sympathy with the OP - was very, ahem, out-of-step with my NCT teacher.

I've met a few of these evangelical types and no, they are not a myth unfortunately.

I just tell them that for me every woman's right to have the childbirth experience they want to have comes a very poor second to having a child that you will actually see grow up.

I spent both my pregnancies thinking I was going to lose the baby and I am totally indifferent to the idea of childbirth as a way for me to find fulfillment or feel empowered. That was just so far down on my list of priorities! I never thought it was about me.

I think that is the most sensible post on here cory.

All the extreme positions are wrong.
It's wrong to think "natural" childbirth is intrinsically better.
It's wrong to think that hospitals should be "in charge" of a straightforward birth with all the mums in stirrups as used to happen.
It's wrong to deny that childbirth can be a central experience of some women's life.
It's wrong to induce a birth for the convenience of the hospital timetable.

Lingle, that is the most sensible post, IMO

Cory, I can totally understand how YOU felt that way in the light of YOUR experiences.
Perhaps there are a few 'evangelical types' out there. I don't think you are suggesting that it then follows that anyone who feels the way in which they deliver holds some importance for them is 'evangelical', but perhaps you could clarify that?

Of course not, Independiente. Evangelical means wanting to influence other peope, it's not about how you feel yourself. Am quite happy for anyone else to feel any way they like about their childbirths, just as long as they'll leave me to decide what I feel about mine.

The evangelical people are the ones who try to tell me how I ought to be feeling. Or the midwife who rang up my SIL and suggested she should have counselling to get her over her feelings of failure after her section (SIL was gloating over her beautiful son and feeling anything but a failure at this stage!). Or the NCT friend who thought an elderly acquaintance ought to go back and have counselling because of her Caesarian 30 years previously (no suggestion this woman was traumatised, it was just her assumption that any woman who had failed to give birth naturally ought to be traumatised and never get over it).

I have enough real failures in my life not to need other people's made-up ones!

I have done both: one vaginal birth and one section. The vaginal was far more traumatic- but then the people who told me afterwards what I ought to be feeling never actually asked me what I did feel. Which was - yes, the vaginal was more painful and traumatic, but actually I'd have gone through a lot more trauma than that to keep my babies alive. And I found the memories receded fairly quickly. So many more important memories concerned with being a mother than with giving birth.

Agree cory. I haven't read the whole post but am amazed by some of the crazy ideas about childbirth on MN, in particular the freebirthing threads.

"It's wrong to think "natural" childbirth is intrinsically better"

Depends what you mean by 'natural' childbirth. If by 'natural' you mean birth without interventions like ARM, augmentation and lithotomy then I'm afraid I'd have to take this position: natural childbirth is intrinsically healthier for most mothers and babies than birth which involves routine interventions which are not medically indicated.

"I am totally indifferent to the idea of childbirth as a way for me to find fulfillment or feel empowered. That was just so far down on my list of priorities! I never thought it was about me"

I start from the position of seeing childbirth as a business where there's a profound interplay between the woman's thoughts and emotions and the normal physiology of birth. Allowing women to behave instinctively, giving them freedom of movement, respecting their privacy, allowing them some autonomy, not intervening unless absolutely necessary, plays a very, very important part when it comes to enabling mothers to give birth without needing medical help.

It's not primarily about having a 'nice' experience - it's about having a healthy birth. Ignoring the mind/body connection in childbirth as NCT flimflammery is utterly illogical - it completely disregards everything we know about the normal physiology of labour.

"amazed by some of the crazy ideas about childbirth on MN, in particular the freebirthing threads"

So - other than freebirthing - what are the 'crazy ideas about childbirth' that you've seen here on mumsnet?

"Or the NCT friend"

Cory, I know that there are lots of people here with a big downer on the NCT. I'm an NCT teacher and I have to say that the mothers I work with want - and have - all sorts of different births, from elective c-sections for social reasons, to home waterbirths. People who attend classes or join the organisation aren't required to tow any particular party line on childbirth you know. Has it ever occured to you that the insensivity some people show about other people's births and their feelings might not.... ahem..... actually be linked to the fact that they have some involvement with the NCT, such as they've joined one of their postnatal groups, attending their classes, or read one of their leaflets in passing, and might be down to who they are as people. You could quite as readily say 'My Cosmopolitan reading friend', or 'My friend who shops at Waitrose', or 'My friend who buys an organic veg box'. Unless of course you're trying to imply that her having any connection with the NCT is somehow instrumental in her being an insensitive plank about your births?

Hear hear, Fabsmum.

Reading this thread has made me remember one thing, the midwives themselves seemed to think that I would regard a c/s as failure telling me on more than one occasion "nevermind at least you know now your body can labour for next time".
Firstly I didn't see having a c/s as a failure and secondly the fact my body could labour so easily could have actually harmed my child as 4 midwives didn't realise he was breech and wouldn't sanction a scan to find out. I don't mind NCT people, I actually feel sorry for the NCT teachers who seem to have to cover a wide range of topics in a very short time and when it comes down to it they don't really have any real influence over the birth as they are not present.
The people I have a current problem with are midwives who seem to project what they consider the best way of having a child onto pregnant women, which is an accusation they tend to level at doctors a lot ironically.

I'd like to talk about "competitive ideas about childbirth" if I may?

Yes, I agree they exist.

But should women who can and do get through labour drug-free, for whatever reason (and the sometimes sneering assumption that it's because their labours were less painful isn't worth a moment's attention, imo and ime) - should they be forced never to mention it for fear of "making other women feel bad"?

What if you have a pretty good birth experience, then go on to breastfeed? Should you stop existing, simply so other women don't feel bad?

It seems silly that only women that have had bad experiences are allowed to talk about them. How do we help other women have better experiences if we can't talk about the positive ones?

"Reading this thread has made me remember one thing, the midwives themselves seemed to think that I would regard a c/s as failure telling me on more than one occasion "nevermind at least you know now your body can labour for next time".

I think it might help you understand where your midwives were coming from if you took into consideration that there's a very strong focus in midwifery training and practice right now on enabling many more women to have a normal birth than are currently doing so and that midwives positively AGONISE about the thought of women having what they believe are sometimes avoidable c-sections.

I personally feel very strongly about this issue too. When C-section birth saves the life of a mother and/baby then it's a triumph, but I think if a woman who is capable of having a safe vaginal birth ends up having major abdominal surgery to deliver her baby because of the way the birth is managed by her care givers, or is pressured into having a c-section which is not strictly necessary (not implying that your c-section was unnecessary by the way), then it's a major falure - not on the mother's part, but on the part of those people whose duty it was to protect her well-being in childbirth.

I'm sure you know that the quality of the research evidence on best mode of birth for breech presentations is very hotly debated in midwifery circles. Maybe what you picked up on was your midwive's ambivalence about this issue. Still - they should have kept their feelings to themselves once you'd made a decision and had your baby.

Should add btw that it's quite easy to miss a breech presentation - doctors and midwives do it all the time.

"when it comes down to it they don't really have any real influence over the birth as they are not present"

Actually the classes do often hugely influence people's experiences of labour - in all sorts of ways. I have been told many times by my clients that coming to the classes empowered them to ask for what they wanted in labour - and to get it! I'd give up teaching if I didn't think it made a difference to people.

I think the reverse is true, I had a job to fend off drugs, I suffer with serious and potentially fatal reactions to many pharmaceutical drugs. I was bullied into having drugs.

I didn't realise what a difference antenatal classes had made to my birth experiences until I came into contact with mothers who had not had that advantage. The course of many labours has been blighted by ignorance causing fear and distress causing a greater need for drugs.

My births were certainly not pain-free, but I was never in distress, never at the end of my tether, never worried it was all going wrong, and that was because due to antenatal education I knew what was normal.