To think that having a drug free natural child birth does not mean you are a better/ stronger person or have more guts

[Reallytired]

Every childbirth experience is different. I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief. It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4459880.stm

People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.

I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications. There are no prizes for putting up with pain.

I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types. Sometimes its the best decision.

Elasticwoman, I think it is often underestimated how much fear plays a role in labour.
I remember being fascinated to read about the role of fear in the first stage and start of second stage as opposed to the end of second stage.
IIRC in first stage and through transition, fear (which of course then mediates adrenalin release) disrupts the flow of oxytocin, making dilation contractions less efficient.
At end of second stage, fear (again, causing adrenalin release) can set off a 'foetal ejection reflex' which gets the baby out fairly fast. Apparently, this is why some women when faced with forceps/ventouse suddenly experience a whopping great contraction which results in crowning and birth.
All linked to our evolutionary past - adrenalin release linked to 'fight or flight' could shut down labour at an early stage, so woman could get away/hide. Adrenalin release in late second stage could deliver baby quickly so woman could get away fast (yeah right, you're thinking! )
Anyway, sure someone will come along and correct me if I have any of that wrong (please do!)
But it really helped me to understand what my body was doing and why.

re. my last post, I am talking about labours uncomplicated by foetal malpositioning.
(Am I the only one who feels I have to always cover my back incase accidentally/purposely misunderstood? Feels like a court of law sometimes ).

I've been lucky (? heroic ?) enough to have 3 reasonably straightforward and thankfully quick labours, and I do think that the fact I am a vet and have a good understanding of the physiological and psychological changes made me a lot more confident and less afraid in labour. With dd1 I had a 4-hour labour, which the MW refused to believe possible! I was confident enough in my own knowledge to insist she examine me and "give me a number between 1 and 10" when she insisted I had "hours to go and needed pethidine" Turned out I was fully dilated and ready to push. But I sometimes wonder if I'd listened to her and taken the pain relief, would my labour have gone differently.

I also know that interfering with animals in the throes of labour, in any way, can upset the course of the labour, and my MWs were really good with this, and left me pretty much alone to get on with it.

Having said that, I was always a low-risk (probably to do with my impressive child-bearing hips!) and I can't imagine how people with really long labours could cope without pain relief. Mine were very painful, but G&A worked for me, and they were mercifully short. I think there are probably things you can do to TRY to avoid unnecessary medication, but IMO if you need it, have it!! If you are panicking and terrified by the pain you are in, that in itself will complicate labour, so its obviously a balance. I always kept an open mind re pain relief/ epidurals (although the thought of someone sticking something in my spine horrified me, especially when I heard you had to stay still for it- I am one of those people who deals with a stubbed toe by hopping round the room, so was dubious of my ability to sit nicely while racked with pain!)

Okay, I wasn't going to post as it will sound bitter, but I will. Cory, I agree with you, the "birth experience" is waaay down my list of priorities.

FWIW (because many others have cited their experience and some have bragged about how stoical they were) I have given birth to an induced, OP and stillborn 41 weeker without epidural. I had diamorphine which made me puke and be unable to walk around but otherwise had no effect. In fact it was terrifying as I'd had both ankle bones set under diamorphine a few years before and it had provided total pain relief but it made no discernible difference to the pain. I was stoical because there was nothing else I could do. It was the most phenomenal pain and I was completely unable to push because of the shock I felt at the sheer unbelievable agony of each contraction. (And I'm not a wimp, honest)

Second time round (live baby thank God) but also induced and at the last minute turned OP, I got to the stoical stage and thought, "I don't want to do this; it reminds me too much of last time; I'm tired of being brave" So I had an epidural (which incidentally enabled me to push the baby out fabulously well) and if anyone wishes to judge me for this they can fuck right off.

I'm now pregnant again and people who don't know my history keep making slightly supercillious suggestions about home births. I'm sure they had a fabulous experience, and I really don't begrudge them their enthusiasm, but it does make me sad.

This is a ramble, sorry.

I tell pregnant friends my birth stories to counter all the horror stories out there. I had two quick, relatively painless, natural home births. I am not boasting or saying that I am better than those needing medical help. I am saying that birth does not have to be painful or frightening or need a lot of intervention. It can go well even with a ten pounder. And the NHS can provide wonderful midwifes and a support stucture in case intervention is needed.

I just think if people hear about forceps and emergency caesarians all the time it is nice to hear the other end of the spectrum.

I think lulumama is right - it is important how the baby came into the world, not from the point of view of competitive birthing, but from the point of view of the mother's mental health.

But having said that, given that so much of childbirth is beyond our control, it doesn't help people who have had complications or medicalised interventions to feel that they 'could have done better'. As someone who really struggles with coming to terms with DS' birth, I realise that some of what I'm feeling when I get angry with 'perfect people with their perfect births' is me projecting.

When I see statements like "natural childbirth is intrinsically healthier for most mothers and babies than birth which involves routine interventions which are not medically indicated" it makes me sad, because although this may be true, it makes me feel that I didn't do the best I could for me and my baby. Was my medical intervention medically indicated or did I bring it on myself? I still feel there was something I could have done to make it happen better - perhaps if I hadn't had that epidural? perhaps if I had spent more time on my birthing ball before labour?

It's because of these questions that plague you that I think people feel judged - because they're judging themselves all the time. Labour is rarely cut and dried - there are choices all the way along and you can't help wondering if you made the right ones .

But as for the rest, the bit that isn't me projecting.....it's also interesting that when people ask about births, if you say 'oh yes, I didn't have any drugs' they just go 'well done'. But if you say 'I had a c-section' people either say 'oh why?' or something crass like 'too posh to push, eh?'

I think it shows that society as a whole does view a medicalised birth differently and as less of an achievement than natural childbirth.

Mrsgboring, I didn't think you sounded bitter, what an unbelievably awful thing to go through.
Not wanting to be reminded of the last time - not hard to understand that at all. Can't think who would judge you for it.
If the people who had homebirths knew the background and what you'd been through, I'm sure they wouldn't keep on with the suggestions. (Not saying that you should have to tell anyone if you don't want to).
Best wishes for your pregnancy.

you know, on the whole, i think people do say crass things, not to be deliberately offensive, but just beacsue it is something to say.

like when you have a girl after you've had a boy, people say, oooh, bet you;re glad to have one of each

or if you have twins, they say ,bet you;ve got your hands full double trouble.

blah blah blah

people say insensitive stuff all the time without really thinking about what they are saying

most people would be horrified and mortified to thikn that they had offended someone

some people may well say it from a smug POV, but i reckon it is a v v small majority who are 'competitive' birthers

I'm quite prepared to admit that 99% of my feelings are about me and how I feel about DS' birth.

I think there is a 1% which can be put down to society and competitiveness - I've seen enough anecdotes of people being unbearably rude about medicalised births to realise that yes, SOME people are quite smug about their quick/easy/drug free labours.

And some people are unbearably rude having never even given birth, which is a bit bloody cheeky!

Independiente, thank you. You have understood it so perfectly too.

Mrsgboring - I totally understand how you feel, although my experience is nothing like as as your first time.

But having been induced first time round and had a dreadful time with every intervention under the sun, followed by a termination at 20 weeks with number two, where I was induced again and had to have way over the recommended dose of drugs to get the termination going, when the consultant this time asked me what kind of birth I was hoping for I said

'ANYTHING BUT INDUCTION'

So yes, if I go overdue and nothing's happening, I shall be going straight to elective CS, because I AM NOT BEING INDUCED AGAIN.

And anyone who tells me I should have tried to give birth naturally can jump off a pier.

fabsmum, my c-section wasn't strictly necessary, DS was a footling breech, I could have delivered vaginally but the risk of brain damage to him due to cord compression would have been significantly higher than a normal breech birth. In fact I think studies have shown that a footling breech is one of the riskest presentation for the baby. The SAFEST way to get my baby out was a c-section.

The point is a midwife could have prevented this, I questioned them time after time about whether the baby was head down because, as I emphasised to them, I wanted to avoid a c-section and if it had been picked up I could have tried ECV, I even discussed scanning with them to check, they (all 3 that checked post 36weeks) dismissed me as neurotic first-timer. In fact one of the reasons they didn't want to scan me was because they didn't want to medicalise things!!

Sorry what I meant about the NCT teachers, who I do think do good work in informing people about the all the options (or maybe I just had a very balanced teacher) is that they are not there when you are in your 20th hour of labour and are scared and frightened whereas midwives are.

I agree with OP

Sometimes women who have reasonably straightforward labours think that they were just good at it!
Making you feel like a failure if you had to or chose to have medical intervention.
My doc told me after that without the option of a section 50 years ago I and my baby would probably have died.

LittleMyDancing, I hope your consultant listens to you, and wish you all the best for your pregnancy and birth.

Am away (and computerless) for a few days, so wanted to say that I'd learned a lot about the extent of people's feeings from this thread.
To go back to OP...

'Every childbirth experience is different.'
Yes, of course it is. YA not BU.

'I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief.'
agree. YA not BU.

' It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.'
It would be more frightening with respect to birth, certainly.

'People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.'
Actually, most people IME don't forget that modern intervention can save lives. So YA partly BU.

'I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications.'
If there are women who expressly say that their birth was easy, then go on to put down someone who had complications, then clearly they are unpleasant and utterly insane cows. (I'd bet money that there are not very many women like this). YA not BU.
If someone who has a non-medicalised birth experience which was uncomplicated but nevertheless still childbirth, and expresses her pride and happiness in how she handled it, and then someone else takes that as a belittling of their experience - well, hardly the first person's fault is it? So, in this case YABU.

'There are no prizes for putting up with pain.' Depends on how you see the role of pain in childbirth -
intrinsically important to some, not intrinsically important to others. So, YABU, as some might feel there are 'prizes' (eg. potentially quicker recovery, and potentially easier to get baby's head to rotate if no epidural is used; the endorphin high afterwards; etc)

'I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types.'
Sorry but this is a crass statement, badly put. For that YABU. What about: 'I think it's sad IF women are bullied against having a medicalised birth, when that is what they feel they need'.?

Libra,
I did specifically point out that I wasn't commenting on your particlar birth, and made a point of saying that only 'some' breech babies can born safely vaginally. Obviously a footling breech presents special difficulties and if the risks are that signficant then I think it would be fair to say, don't you think, that your c-section would fall into the category of 'strictly necessary'?

"The point is a midwife could have prevented this, I questioned them time after time about whether the baby was head down because, as I emphasised to them, I wanted to avoid a c-section and if it had been picked up I could have tried ECV"

To try to put the case your midwives might put in defence of themselves - it's common for breech not to be picked up - even by obstetricians and experienced midwives. "I even discussed scanning with them to check" - and many women request scans in late pregnancy - for very good reasons these are often refused. I know you think it's mad not scanning in order not to medicalise things, but the evidence in support of limiting this sort of practice is pretty sound.It's very common for women to have scans in late pregnancy which throw up 'false positives' which then do complicate the care of the woman when she goes into labour. It was just hard for you that in your case they got it wrong.

mrsgboring - I have a wonderful and extremely supportive consultant. Thank you x

[invisible]

As I said, if you have a good birth because, you know, you just do, are you not allowed to mention it for fear that someone might think you're having a dig at them when you're really, really not?

of course not. but perhaps if we were all more open about how traumatic a difficult birth could be, people would be more tactful, instead of all this 'all that matters is the baby and you are ok' stuff.

if you have a friend who you know is having trouble conceiving, you wouldn't go on about how you fall pregnant really easily, would you, while also saying 'well at least you're alive, eh' to your friend.

maybe we should have more freedom to say 'I had a really difficult birth and I still feel awful about it' instead of doing this brave face thing.

I had a pretty dreadful first birth experience with my DS1 (culminating in him nearly dying, and having to have an intra-cardiac adrenalin shot to bring him round).

I was offered a caesarean section for DS2.

I declined on the grounds that I was sure I could have a much better birth experience if I went back to basics, threw out the drugs and did it au naturel.

So I think hunker is right - if you don't hear about positive birth experiences, then you'll never have the encouragement to try to have one.

But what made you sure you could do it SixSpot? Was it all the tales from people of textbook births? Or was it your instincts?

I can see what you mean in a way, but I think there's a time and a place for people to hear positive birth stories if they've had a rubbish time.

Personally I find the stories of successful VBACs on here very encouraging, as I'm hoping for one this time. But for a while I couldn't hear about births at all without crying.

LMD, I absolutely agree. I am so not interested in people putting on a brave face, you have no idea! I think there would be a lot better mental health among mothers particularly if they were allowed to say "Fuck, this is HARD!".

But you have to have the mirror - you can't JUST talk about how dreadful it is. It doesn't encourage anybody and to be utterly discouraged before you give birth - well, for many women, that's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And I'm NOT saying that bad births are the womans fault - that would be utter lunacy. I had a pretty good idea that I could stand the pain, partly because I'd experienced it once a month for a decade, maybe? But a baby who's in a bad position/gets stuck/is in distress? You can't plan for that. And, sensitively handled, it shouldn't cause you lasting grief - there's a school of thought that believes that the way your birth is handled by the people supporting you is key to your feelings surrounding it. So if you have a birth that is relatively physical trauma free, you can still feel pretty bloody appalling about it if your midwife is disparaging to you (maybe calls you ridiculous for wanting to try it drug-free, tells you you'll never cope, you're pathetic and generally causes you to mistrust your body).

Absolutely - my sis had two c-sections. First one was pretty much forced upon her for failure to progress (she was in France) and she was so traumatised by her lack of control and choice that she had dreams about killing her consultants for weeks afterwards!

Second one was for a breech presentation, but she was given the options and the risks and asked what she would like to do, with no pressure, and chose c-section despite having desperately wanted a VBAC. And has harboured no violent urges towards her consultant at all this time!

The handling is vital, you're right.

But I think there is a huge part of a woman that questions whether they are truly a woman if they haven't managed to give birth vaginally - and although good handling of the birth can help that, it can still be very traumatic.

As always, it's all about context and timing. Positive birth stories are brilliant and affirming and supportive in the right context.

Someone like I just heard about on another thread who just tossed out the opinion that pain relief wasn't necessary to childbirth to someone at the school gates - they should be taken out and beaten with pointy sticks

Ok i agree with hunker. If you have a good natural birth - you should be able to feel proud of that - bloody hell childbirth hurts!

I had one emcs and one elective. The emergency followed waters breaking on sunday - very long latent labour - slowly dilated - 2 hours pushing and then finally a c-section on the friday.

Next time i was booked in for an elective - baby then taken to NICU for a week and i still bf and i am immensely proud of that.

I think natural childbirth is wonderful despite not having achieved that myself but i don't feel inferior for having had c-sections.

I did get one comment after my emcs where a friend said she knew i'd be too posh to push - ha ha ha. But hey - sometimes people just are a bit silly or tactless.

LMD, your poor sister. I'm glad she had a better experience second time round. The vulnerability of women giving birth can be underestimated - and played upon.

It's a strong woman who says "Why is this happening, it's not something I'm comfortable with and, actually, I need you to change what you're doing". Standing up to your caregivers is a hard thing to do - you have to overcome the "they're here to look after me" thing and that's not easy!

I agree there's a time and a place for positive birth stories and often women who've had traumatic births just need to talk about them, not hear "Ooh, awful, now, let me tell you about the whale song that I had as I breathed little Johnny into the world" - that sort of thing deserves a punch in the head!