To think that having a drug free natural child birth does not mean you are a better/ stronger person or have more guts

[Reallytired]

Every childbirth experience is different. I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief. It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4459880.stm

People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.

I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications. There are no prizes for putting up with pain.

I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types. Sometimes its the best decision.

findtheriver, I find your style so teenage.

Of course people have different pain thresholds and experiences.

SMB, exactly.

I feel very smug that I got to 8cm at home with paracetamol and tea.
I feel very smug that I live in a country that enabled me to have a emcs when I got to the hospital because DS turned out to be a footling breech.

The reason I feel smug about the 8cm at home bit is because when I used to talk about labour pre pregnancy I was adamant that I wanted an elective c.s as I was so scared of giving birth.

The reason I feel smug about living in a country that I could have an emcs in is that the likelyhood of something going very wrong with a natural birth is much higher with a footling breech.

I wouldn't bring natural/assisted conception into this. I know it's simply to illustrate a point but I really wouldn't

SharpMolarBear - why should it upset people if someone coped well with pain? Especially if we are all agreeing with the basic principle that 'every childbirth experience is different' (opening line from OP). If someone feels upset that they didn't 'cope as well' with the pain as they wanted or expected to, I can see why they might be sensitive about it. But that's not the fault of someone else who did, nor does it imply that someone is a better woman or mother.

AbbeyA - 'It could well have been different', granted, no one's going to disagree with that, nor has anyone. But, 'they just weren't tested'?!!!! Good god, how could you write something like that? Hope that wasn't a serious comment!

I love that childbirth is about the most macho thing anyone can do and it's only women who can do it

Let's all recognide that's it's effing hard however it's done. Well done everybody.

In that case I think you meant fabsmum - not findtheriver. I have poster blindness when people start with the same letter - do you as well?
findtheriver, I do agree with you and am totally confused. I don't know what to think any more. I suppose my attitude is that after the birth is too late to do anything abuot it (I completely agree with making women aware of the risks of intervention BEFORE the birth) and a lot of the discussions with people I met ante natally seemed to be a bit point scorey - I had this drug, did you? This happened, but this was the reason... Maybe that's just the people I know but it made me very uncomfortable.
OTOH I regularly go on threads started by nervous first timers to talk about my labour, mainly because I remember that nervousness and I want to reassure them that it can be good - not all 1st births are long drawn out, excessively painful affairs with lots of intervention.

Chequersand chess - love that too!

I agree chequersandchess! Unfortunately it is only women who can then say "but I was better at it because I coped with the pain"!
I think there is a huge industry telling us what constitutes a 'good' birth and so people feel failures if they didn't manage it.

But AbbeyA, who actually is saying that? I'm really happy I coped with the pain drug-free; doesn't make me a better person than someone who chose to do it differently.
There is more support for elective caesareans in this country than there has been in the past, there have been improvements in epidural drugs and the way they are delivered (mobile epis, etc) - so where is this huge industry you speak of? Do you mean the NCT? No one is forced to go to NCT classes. If someone does, it may be because they have a pro-drug-free-if-possible take on birth. Is that not allowed, in case other people feel 'failures'?

(Sorry if I am not keeping up to speed with this thread's pace.. really interested in this, but trying to do other stuff too!)

Oh phew, I am up to speed.

it is only women who can then say "but I was better at it because I coped with the pain"!

But nobody here is talking about being 'better at' or 'worse at' giving birth than anyone else. There are no value judgements going on here as far as I can see and I'm baffled by the continued insistence that there are.

Snap Hatrick.
Drugs scare the crap out of me.
I had pethidine with my first baby and I seriously thought I was dying. It was horrendous.

My other 2 births were drug free but by no means were they easy or painless!

findtheriver, i totally agree with this, and i thikn this is the point that is bieng overlooked, time and time again!

'
For the Millionth time... no one who has had a natural birth has posted on this thread to say that they think they are a better person than anyone else.

A lot of people have posted to say that giving birth naturally enabled them to feel positive and great about THEMSELF.
I am one of those people, and it is my right to say so!!"

it is about each individual and no-one, but no-one is using their birth as a stick to beat someone else with. not at all

but those who are proud of themselves are being told basically to lie about it, so as not to make anyone else feel inadequate. that is insane.

OK I'm convinced

All births are different, and you can only know how painful a particular birth was if you are the mother who went through it. Obviously giving birth to a 6lb baby with a small head circumference who is in the right position will be a different story from giving birth to a 10 pounder with a huge head who is back to back.

Also, I think length of labour makes a big difference, because anyone can go through any amount of pain if they know it's only for a short time, say 2 hours. But if you've been in agony for, say, 12 hours and there's no knowing how much longer it may go on, that makes it much more difficult.

So, speaking as someone who endured a 23 hour labour so painful that I would have chopped my arm off rather than endure another minute, with a massive baby with huge head who needed an emergency cs in the end, I get slightly annoyed by smug comments like "I managed to cope because I have a high pain threshold/was so well informed/had the right attitude" from women who had 3 hour labours!

Tutti Frutti, if you're getting comments like that from women who had really short labours, I can definitely understand why you feel annoyed!
I had a 13 hour, pretty painful labour - so nothing like as long as yours. The baby was in an ok position - not 'perfect', but certainly not back-to-back. My second stage slowed down loads (as soon as I got to hosp!), and I took 3 hours to push him out (not perfect descent position).
I was very fortunate that he was not back-to-back, I know that. Also lucky he wasn't a massive baby. But I do feel that I personally wouldn't have coped as well had I not been as informed, or supported in my choices - note that is a personal statement pertaining to ME.
So, a mix of good fortune, information (which allowed me to relax more), and some hard slog.
(Please note: I am not saying that people who have pain-relief medication are not informed, or not prepared for hard slog!!!)

I may be getting it wrong, but I thought that people were saying that they had natural births because they managed the pain-the inference being that this was superior to those who need pain relief.
I have had 3 very easy births with only gas and air, or nothing. I am not brave-I didn't 'manage' the birth; it is pure good luck.
My argument is that people should just be pleased that they were lucky and not think they are superior-they just haven't been put to the test.
When I have said that it is luck, I have been told that I am wrong.

AbbeyA, On the other hand saying having a quick birth means you haven't been put to the test implies that you've got no reason to be proud of yourself. My labour was quicker than a lot of peoples which obviously meant I was less likely to need pain relief but I was very definitely put to the test as giving birth is agony however long you might have been in labour for.

just to be full of self pity- I just wish I had had a chance to even go into labour (pre-eclampsia both times resulted in emcs's). Definitely feel personally that never having got to that point is a failure on my part, and it doesn't matter how many times someone tells you "it's not your fault....at least your babies are ok now" there is a gaping hole in the passage to motherhood I feel missing. Sitting next to women at groups chatting about childbirth makes me feel sad and in a way a lesser person because I haven't had those experiences, through no choice of my own.

BUT talking more generally, I think we do have a habit of getting too hung up on how babies are born.... And this is from someone who had been raised by a mother who's gospel was the continuum concept and drummed into me how important the experience of birth is for both baby & mother...
To be honest I feel women should be very well informed about various options for childbirth and frank about risks etc. I'd love a natural homebirth (next life maybe) but also love the fact developed world medical help is close by.

And at the end of the day we are all different and labour & birth different for everyone. There should never been any element of competition in it!

AbbeyA - I suppose I'm saying it's partly luck, partly personal support, partly bloodyminded determination in some cases (not all) - and those aren't value judgements, btw! I don't like this comment about being 'put to the test' - assuming we all agree that each birth is different, how can you know what is and what isn't 'the test' is for each woman?
Once and for all, nobody is thinking they are superior! Some people feel a strong desire to do things a certain way and then feel BOTH lucky AND proud that they managed it.

being competitive/trying to get one up over each other is just the way us women are. if it's not childbirth it's feeding, who's kid walked first/spoke 2 languages fluently......balh, blah.

You have to be laid back about other people's choices.