To think that having a drug free natural child birth does not mean you are a better/ stronger person or have more guts

[Reallytired]

Every childbirth experience is different. I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief. It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4459880.stm

People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.

I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications. There are no prizes for putting up with pain.

I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types. Sometimes its the best decision.

Am confused (nothing new). How was fabsmum being smug & what is monkeytrousers talking about.

I can't see the smugness neither...mt...what do you mean, why do you think fm was smug?

To put some perspective on the discussion consider how many women give birth - no choice on anything with many awful complications.

PumpkinPatty

Look how hard I am.

And anyone who has pain relief simply doesn't have the right attitude.

Including me of course, as I had an epidural, gas and air and pethidine with my first. The works. And enjoyed the birth.

indeed sabire....I think with ds3 I was pretty much set about getting things done reasonable easy...not painfree, obviously....and I fought hard and made sure the correct test werre done for my situation....but it still ended up a unb earable painful, gone wrong ( imo) birth....

and I felt really comfortable with myself and my coping mechanism....my experence really showed me how even a positive birth can go so wrong and how that can effect the mother and the Baby

I can't really see why women are so hard on each other-as long as you have a healthy baby at the end,it really doesn't matter!

abby, because the mental status of the mother is important too...yes healthy life baby very important....but this should not just be achieved by igoring the mother....as in good relationship to kids calso has a big impact

I remember when i was pregnant with dc1 and was determined i would have an epiduarl ( i don't do pain well!!!), a friend of mine said " you are not a proper woman unless you've felt the pain". I thought, what total crap!! I had the epidural and remember watching the FA cup final whilst 7cm dilated!! It was boss!!

I had the exact same plans for dc2. She had other ideas and came that fast pain relief was never an option. The pain shocked me and i found the pushing part horrendous!!!

Looking back now, i am glad that i have experienced natural childbirth but i honestly believe each to their own, and if the options are there, why not use them.

"And you have implied that you are somehow better than people who opt for pain relief in their labours."

Sorry - but saying 'I'm stoical' doesn't imply that other people who are not stoical are somehow lesser human beings, anymore than saying 'I've got nice feet' implies that yours are knobbly horrors.

"And anyone who has pain relief simply doesn't have the right attitute"

Did you overlook that post of mine where I spoke about my first birth? The one where I had g&a, followed by pethidine, followed by an epidural?

because the mediated options have got side effects?

that would be a reason....if you can

I was glad that I had natural births, and it turns out that I must be fairly stoical, but it is largely luck- I wasn't put to the test or I might have reacted very differently.
I must be naturally pessimistic, because even after 3 easy births I wouldn't want a home one-I would like to know that I was in the right place for an emergency!

but abbey...still t is really about the mental impact really, yes you shose not to have ever a homebirth....however, don't think that me chosing havibg ds 3 in hospital would have made much differenece unless the staff in the hospital had treated me differently, which I doubt, sadly and honestly....

I still don't think interventions are always handled badly by medical staff. Everything was clearly explained to me, the midwives clearly wanted to avoid intervention and i was asked if i was happy to proceed at every single decision point..this meant that i felt like everyone in the room was working with me as a team towards a succesful outcome

so sometimes it is not the intervention itself that is distressing (although they are a bit!), but how they are handled by the midwives, doctors etc..that determines if we left feeling good or distressed afterwards

Fabsmums - you say "Got to the hospital at 1.30 am, baby born 2.15am so very little chance to practice my support strategies!" Would this be counted as a personal success in those intervention studies showing doula use have better outcomes than anything else? Please note I'm really not being nasty, just wondering where anecdote ends and proper research starts. Note also I'm not confused on whether use of doulas is associated with lower intervetions just doubting that the relationship is causal. Also, the doulas you mentioned, where they all doulas or birth companions (i.e. paid or not)?

ISnt the most important thing thaqt you have a healthy baby out of it all????????

IMO when you have a baby you put yourself into the hands of your mwife. I am medically qualified (NOT an obstetrician or anything like it)... but my birth "plan" was really "see how it goes, do as advised..."
So it seems to me that to a certain extent your birth experience is really dependent on the mwife - their attitudes, supportiveness and care can influence how you feel about it at the time and afterwards...big responsibility there...and this applies to use/choice of pain relief too.

wrt the whole pain relief thing I have seen hundreds of people recovering from the same operation. Some need paracetamol, some days of iv opiates. We are not all the same in this respect, neither are all births the same so what is adequate will vary hugely. Pain is a very complex thing in its aetiology, perception and meaning.

"just wondering where anecdote ends and proper research starts. Note also I'm not confused on whether use of doulas is associated with lower intervetions just doubting that the relationship is causal"

here

This is the research the NICE recommendations are based on (it's a review of the evidence so not one individual study) . Note that "continuous intrapartum support was associated with greater benefits when the provider was not a member of the hospital staff"

I should imagine that it some of the studies that formed part of this research paid doulas were used, and possibly volunteers or friends/family members were used in others.

"So it seems to me that to a certain extent your birth experience is really dependent on the mwife - their attitudes, supportiveness and care can influence how you feel about it at the time and afterwards..."

Agree! I'm an NCT teacher and 3 out of 4 of the teachers in my branch paid for an independent midwife for their own births for this very reason. The fourth teacher in the branch WAS the independent midwife we all booked with! I think there are loads of great NHS midwives - I just wasn't prepared to take pot luck on the day, so remortgaged the house to pay for someone I knew was good.

I'm afraid I do think people who have no pain relief in labour do tell people, which in itself is inviting extra congratulations....and there is a massive anti c-section brigade.

y Peridot30 on Sun 19-Oct-08 01:07:38
ISnt the most important thing thaqt you have a healthy baby out of it all????????

well, that is a major factor, but as I have said on this thread and many others, the mental and emotional and physical health of the mother is vital too. and the impact of how the baby arrives is often downplayed or overlooked.

IME, women who have suffered or are suffering birth trauma are often left feeling worse after some well meaning person says' as long as the baby is ok, what does it matter, how he/she arrived?' it categorically does matter and that sort of question leaves women feeling as though they are not allowed to be disappointed or upset or angry about how their birth went

also re doulas, there is an oft quoted research by Klaus & Kennell about the positive effect doulas/one to one continous care can have on a labouring woman, links to it on doula uk i think

twelvelegs, why should htey not tell people, when asked about their birth ,that thye had no pain relief? should they feel compelled to lie?

telling people you gave birth without pain relief is not the same as being smug and looking down on those who had pain relief

I do apologise twelveleges. Obviously we should either lie about our births or not join in discussions about labour experiences, for fear of being accused of boasting or of making people who've used pain relief feel bad.

One in four women in this countrry give birth operatively, which means most of us have friends and family who've needed a c-section to safely deliver their baby. So where's the evidence that there's a 'massive anti-csection 'brigade'? And why the use of military terminology, unless you're trying to make a point about militancy?

I agree lulu.

I've looked back over this thread and I can't find a single post where anyone has claimed to be 'better' or 'harder' than a woman who has drugs to give birth. Not one. Neither could Monkeytrousers when put on the spot by fabsmum, which says it all really.

What is clear that a lot of women who have natural births do experience a feeling of awe, pride, empowerment, call it what you will, which can make them feel more confident and better about themselves. But that is not the same as 'better than anyone else'. This has been articulated clearly time and time again, and still some people want to twist what's being said.

Women have a right to express their feelings about their own birth. If a woman has had a traumatic birth which has left her feeling depressed, no one would dream of telling her she shouldn't talk about it. So why shouldn't women who have maybe had an equally painful birth but feel good about it not express their feelings too?

"Sorry - but saying 'I'm stoical' doesn't imply that other people who are not stoical are somehow lesser human beings, anymore than saying 'I've got nice feet' implies that yours are knobbly horrors."

Fabsmum, that statement basically says that people who have pain relief are not stoical. So if someone endures 36 hrs of labour with no pain relief then has an epidural they are, according to you "not stoical".

Get over yourself.

Oh FGS mummiesnet, you're getting way too wound up over this.

I managed my first birth naturally. It was long and painful. I felt stoical about it. Does that mean I too am implying anything about anyone else? Not at all. Up to each woman to make an informed choice about childbirth.

Sad, sad, sad, competing over who's birth experience makes them a better person.