To think that having a drug free natural child birth does not mean you are a better/ stronger person or have more guts

[Reallytired]

Every childbirth experience is different. I am glad that there are options of intervention like caeseran section, drugs for pain relief. It would be horrendous to live somewhere like Chad where maternal death in childbirth is extremely common.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4459880.stm

People forget that modern intervention means living mothers and babies.

I hate it when women who have had an easy birth experience belittle those who had complications. There are no prizes for putting up with pain.

I think its sad when women are bullied against a medicalised birth by NCT types. Sometimes its the best decision.

i couldnt care less how my babies or anyone elses babies arrived.they came out didnt they.im proud of my children,im proud of myself for carrying them for 9 months,im proud that my body did that!i had 3 cs-im proud i coped.theres no right or wrong or better way.healthy happy mums and babies are all that matters.

i think there is a lot of projection going on here!

Of course there is! Maybe it's remedial! ##I am not decrying any women being proud of her birth experience - I want all women to be abel to feel proud, even the ones who feel like failures. Obvioulsy, they are going to be sensitive reading stories about earth mothers pushing out 12lbs babies at home with the other kids watching and whilst baking cake. They should be proud of that. ALL I am saying is that sucb natural births shouldn't be romanticised as being somehow better or a better achievement as any other birth expereince. And a bit of humility instead of (and I have read this here on MN) a gung ho, (paraphrased) 'I'm just a spunky bitch who can stand the pain'.

If you (or anyone) haven't needed to delare thism then again, I'm not talking about you.

Like most times, I am advocating the middle ground here

This is just like the SAHM/WOHM debates - where everyone accuses each other of projection "if you don't like what I do it's because you feel inadequate yourself"

Yawn de yawn.

As cheese sarnie says, bringing a child into the world is an enormous achievement however it is done.

Only one CS. An look above there. Big statement about middle groud.

I agree fabsmum, Claire 236 etc

Why can't women be allowed to say that they found natural birth empowering and that it makes them feel good about themself??

It doesn't mean they are judging anyone else who has had a medicated birth! I think that assumption is being made an awful lot on here. No one as far as I can see has talked about a 'perfect' birth - I don't even know what that means. I guess in a sense you could say that any birth where the outcome is a healthy baby and mother is perfect - in which case I have had 3 perfect births. The fact remains that one of these was by CS, which was lifesaving for my baby. My natural births were the ones which made me feel a huge sense of achievement and belief in my body. What on earth is wrong with saying that? It's true.

What is the point of denying pain relief for having stitches. How does it benefit you or the baby? Surely its stupid to suffer in extreme pain when there is an alternative.

Reallytired, who said I was in extreme pain? I wasn't. The docotr wanted me to have an epidural, I think it would be stupid to have an epidural I didn't want or need just because a doctor told me to.

My impression is that Fabsmum has not remotely got the wrong end of the stick. I think she posts in a very un-obtuse way, that is honest and transparent. I think she's spot on.
I had a painful, average-length, completely drug-free birth. It wasn't easy, of course it bloody wasn't - this is childbirth we're talking about! I also felt proud of myself, and as others have said, I felt that I'd been through a rite of passage that left me feeling stronger in myself. I've never felt superior to anyone who had a different experience of birth than me - why would I? How would I be able to know the exact pain and the emotions that another woman is feeling? I only know what I felt, and of course I'm allowed to express MY pride at MY experience. I'm sure there was a good degree of serendipity involved in having an uncomplicated birth. I'm also sure that I found some 'rare inner strength' (as MT rather scathingly puts it) that helped me through this universally challenging experience.
If I ever have another child, I would like to do all I can to experience another drug-free birth. It might not end up that way, of course. I accept that each birth is a different experience and that there are no guarantees. But this does not mean that I will not reacquaint myself with the knowledge needed to give myself the best chance of a drug-free birth. That should not be an insult to anyone.

i had a painful drug free birth with dd and i am proud that i managed a natural birth but i don't judge anyone else on their birthing stories, it's none of my business. Why is OP so bothered that someone else chooses no drugs?
If i needed drugs i would have them, i certainly wouldn't endanger my baby or myself, but if i can do without i will.

there needs to be a humility both ways

those who had what they perceive to be a perfect birth should be able to say so, without someone else saying eff off you smug beatch , stop belittling my horrific labour by talking about yours

and the same goes for those who make stupid statements about c.section births being the easy option or about not trying hard enough

to be honest, there is a huge amount of this middle ground ,of women having relatively ok births, but this debate tends to bring out the extremes.. bad and good, hence it gets polarised

i still take issue with the OP talking basically about NCT types being bullies..

no there aren;t prizes for putting up with the pain, no medals handed out, but a lot of women feel incredibly proud after giving birth and should be allowed to talk about it

Spot the contradiction:

Monkeytrousers:

"I am not decrying any women being proud of her birth experience - I want all women to be abel to feel proud"

Monkeytrousers:
"I do hate it when they try to attribute it to some rare inner strengh or superpower in dealing with pain, which is a way of tacitly saying those who have pain relief are not quite so special as them. They will object to this and indeed it may not have passed through their minds that this is what they are doing, but it is. I can also see why they would want to do it, they feel good and are very proud of themselves and want to bragg a bit."

Also:

"ALL I am saying is that sucb natural births shouldn't be romanticised as being somehow better or a better achievement as any other birth expereince"

Sorry - but my experience of pushing out a massive baby at home (not while baking a cake or with my other dc's present however) was 'better' than my first birth in hospital, which involved pethidine, an epidural and finally doctors dragging my baby out with forceps, because a) I am able to remember it as I was not off my head from pethidine at the time b) it resulted in an alert baby who fed well and wasn't bruised and jaundiced. So in my view one birth CAN be a 'better' experience than another.

I look at people who had calm home waterbirths with no major last minute complications (like I had) and do think 'they had a better birth than me', but not in the spirit of 'I'm a failure' - there's no moral judgement implied here.

Hmmm yes - think monkey's confused!

fabsmum, you have posted rationally, calmly and with great aplomb on this thread

Thanks lulumama

Oh btw - I did my first doula birth a few weeks ago.

Got to the hospital at 1.30 am, baby born 2.15am so very little chance to practice my support strategies! But awesome and wonderful.

Second client due this week. I'm on tenterhooks!

my first one was a bit like that too !! you are so full of good things you are desperate to try out and there;s no time! best of luck, i am sure you are a wonderful doula

Better experience yes, but would you dream of saying to a mother who did have pain relief that you had achievd somehting she hadn't? I don;t think so. Therefore I am not talking about you. I am making a general statement about people who specifically harp on about their unique achievements. Disentagle ythat one

I had a caesareans and am about to have a fourth, I do get questions like 'do you feel you missed out?' 'Lucky you no pushing then?' and I look at the three most beautiful children I have ever known and I feel proud.

I'll just let that post of yours stand uncommented on Monkeytrousers.

Interesting thread. Firstly, I think that is every single labour whatever happens is an amazing dramatic event... and as such I do wish it didn't appear like we were 'judging' each other. I actually was felt very proud of myself and empowered by my labour which ended up with an epdidural, failed ventose (sp?) and forcepts delivery. I was on G&A for 24 hours, before after a LOT of discussion descided to go with a mobile epidural..which had basically worn off by the time we got to the 2 hours of pushing...as DS had his shoulder stuck (is this SD ?),was in distress and had to be resusitated after birth.. i was very pleased to be in a hospital. If I perhaps had Fabsmum experience I would be prepared to go through that experience at home..but I was really pleased to have medical staff about! Throughout the labour I was relaxed, positive and all that good stuff..but it was still a difficult labour that needed intervention. I was very, very lucky, I have a beautiful healthy baby... and the rest disappears into a fuzzy memory.. which hopefully wont be re-invoked when I have DC2 in Feb !

hm....faBS aT YOUR LION SPEARING comparison...tis a bit dangerous....I talked about my 3 births earlier in this thread....and coped remarkably well with birth 1 and 2, even though there were hitches....but neither birth traumatised me....therefore I FELT that indeed with my 3rd child I would be poerfectly fine at home, and whilst making all those birthplan arrangement for all those possible possibilities...not in a million years did I reaLLY belief that anything really would be going wrong...but it al went so tits up and that was what traumatised me as much as the way the interventions happened....

Well, I won't let it stand uncommented on!
Monkeytrousers (like the name btw), WHO are all these people you are talking about? There hasn't been one on this entire thread. Perhaps you could do a trawl through of MN threads to support your POV. Assuming that MN is broadly representative of mothers in this country. Talk about 'harping on'...

otherwise fabs I don't agree by the way....you just used a bad example with that one...

Trawl lol

Hmm, yes. I have trawled then developed a pov. Yawn. Keep grinning into your chips.

Fabsmum - you are incredibly smug.

And you have implied that you are somehow better than people who opt for pain relief in their labours. Your post about how stoical and pragmatic you are which meant you could deal with the pain - well you might as well just say look how hard I am. And anyone who has pain relief simply doesn't have the right attitute.

Er, ok I will. (What does it mean?)