To think people who talk about benefit claimaints negatively, but claim Working Tax credits (as do 9 out of ten families with children) are hypocrites

[harrietanderson]

People who talk about benefit claimants and scroungers negatively, but chances are they are claiming Working tax credits themselves are hypocrites.
9 out of 10 families with children qualify for this state benefit but still don't consider themselves to be state/taxpayer supported when in fact they are!

not sure about this. If a family is earning over 50K a year then they don't get it. A family earning 45K a year gets it. If as I was earning say 16k a year I get around £50 a week, if someone is working 16 hours they can get around £200 a week. Its all the same benefit so why would anyone look down on anyone getting it.

IME the single mum that gets £200 a week compared to me that gets £50 probably works less but has to cut her coat according to the cloth. Who gives a shit its a brilliant benefit that has improved the lives of many, yes there is fraud and maladminstration but no-one that gets it should look down on anyone. And that goes for higher earners too.

"We just have a completely fundamentally different view of social and personal responsibility, I don't see this as capable of resolution. "

Well I suspect that that is why no-one has been able to wave a magic wand over this particular problem. There isn't an easy answer that would receive enough votes in the right areas.

YABU. There ia a difference between people who are soley on benefits and MOST families who get a small amount of help whilst working. Would you say the same of child benefits which every parent gets?

Ok, so we are not talking about child tax credits that most people get are. In my defence OP was misleading.

How dare anyone begrudge these payments. It's just not on. Get a grip, tax credits can be a lifeline for many families. We are bringing up the next generation and the knock on effect of future generations is priceless. By having children we all sacrifice a lot, just to presume that one cannot have children unless one is wealthy is an evil concept.

Don't even go there!!!

I am astonished 90% of families with children are entitled to tax credits! The threshold is around 58k household income isn't it?

Is it any wonder there are so many children living in poverty in this country

Gawd I spent ages replying, then yahoo crashed.

I get CTC at a high rate, but thats becuase I get the disability element times 2. Bet nobody wants to swap??

the other benefit we get is carers allowance. Now, that is one effed up benefit!

You cant claim if you study because although you're home with your kids every hour theya re if they are school age, you're deemed not caring for them - ho is then? I know I was!

Every penny gets counted against CTC. Its ony worth me claiming it because I want to be on the stats as a Carer, the Government needs to be awae of every one of us.

It's a massive £50.51 a week. Woo-hoo. That goes sooo far!

I want to go back next year, to do my PGCE but losing CA and the big issue of childcare for disabled kids may yet prevent me. Surely CA needs to be arranged to facilitate going back to work, as well as providing a vague income for those who are, ultimately, providing a service that saves the NHS thousands?

Sorry. rant over.

Tax credits are one issue, which I think everyone is pretty much OK with. I'm not sure anyone on this thread thinks they are bad (except that they could be better administered, ie higher personal tax allowances). Are we all agreed tax credits and benefits are not the same thing?

The thread has opened into a more general discussion of benefits, in the normal sense. Some people, like me, have an issue with long term benefits receipiants (not all of them - ie receipiants of DLA or carers - but some) and others don't.

'a vague income'

sorry

at least vaguely acceptable

came out completely wrong

Eachpeach, are you saying that unless a faimly earns 58k they are living in poverty? Not yet anyway.

These benefits are nothing to do with poverty they are to help families bring up children who are after all the countries greatest investment.

Why cannot people work out that the single mums on IS and HB have already worked out if they are better off working or not, probably not so why should they go to work. They are bringing up the next generation, the ones that will pay for your pension etc .

Do you think that single mums are thick?

If this government wants to get single mums on IS back to work they need to do their homework, or indeed anyone that wants to work when its more financially viable to work less such as myself. That is what needs to be addressed not just slagging off these people.

Perhaps we should have a thread. How many off us are so rich we don't claim WTC or Child Benefit?

I don't think all single mums are thick, no. Some of these calculations absolutely baffle me.

I think the benefits system needs to be reformed so it isn't more beneficial for a fit healthy adult to remain on benefits than work.

"Bringing up the next generation" - what the fuck do you think my husband and I are doing? Are are working mothers not proper parents?

Tax credits are not a rebate of the tax you have paid.

DH earns £18000, so taxed £2393 per year, £46.01 per week. We have 2 DC, so get £78 per week CTC. It will rise when DC3 is born in April.

It is a redistributive benefit. Some people will get more credits than they pay in tax, others will pay more tax than they get in credits. By necessity, given the way it is calculated, the less you put into the coffers, the more you get.

And you can (and we do) get housing benefit if you work. DH works full-time. We get about 40% of our rent paid by the council (we rent privately).

Yes me too and working all my life to do it, but I agree that it needs to be finacially beneficial to do so, not just £10 a week better off it you work 40 hours as opposed to no hours.

Don't attack me, I have always worked to support myself and my daughter just looking at it from all angles.

Lou, the married couple's tax allowance and transferable tax allowance would have made you much better off than that, assuming you do not work as well. He would have been able to use your tax allowance too - he would only have paid tax on approx £8,000 of his income.

IMO tax credits are great, not perfect, but our society is far from that. I don't see it as scrounging at all, but neither would I slate someone on benefits. They (ctc) make working worthwhile for those on low incomes. They also allow some lower paid secondary earners to choose to SAH as they would earn little more than what they get in tax credits. That enables choice and enables children to be cared for so is good IMO. I don't agree with workfare etc as usually it ends up with lone parents doing long hours at menial jobs (in some cases travelling hours a day to get to work) and becoming work poor rather than benefit poor. The kids suffer and loose both parents rather than just one. I personally think lone parents have enough to do just raising kids, but maybe should be helped into training or work (inc. if they want to, to opt for term/part time only) whe their kids are older, 7 is reasonable but 12 is OK too I think.

Another thing that gets to me is higher paid friends with accountants who avoid paying the right taxes or fat cats who also avoid tax, they are as bad as or worse than 'benefit scroungers' and not paying their dues.

It's just that society needs to stigmatise those at 'the bottom' otherwise no-one would want to work, so they need to make it so those who work can feel superior to a group of people, regardless of the fact that maybe society creates this situation in the first place.

YAB very very unreasonable.

People being on benefits is one thing.

People being on tax credits are just the same as people in previous generations who were give tax allowences according to how many children they had. This allowance was taken away by the Tories and reintroduced under a different name by Labour.

Oh, and the real guilty parties here are arsehole exploitative employers who simply aren't paying millions of employees a decent living wage.

Hence people having to be topped up by the tax payer.

Are we all agreed tax credits and benefits are not the same thing?>>

They are not the same exactly, but in terms of looking down at someone for being a drain on other taxpayers then yes they are.
As has been pointed out they are not always your taxes being returned. Even if they were those taxes are owed. It's still money that would be available to others if the working person claiming them stopped doing so. I have nothing against people getting tax credit. Just making the point that those who do don't expect to be told "she shouldn't be smoking/going on holiday/having a nice TV because she is getting help from the state" and nor should those who legally claim other benefits.

Nametaken, I don't see "tax allowences according to how many children they had" as being a moral right anyway. Just another kind of topup benefit. However I completely agree with the "exploitative employers who simply aren't paying millions of employees a decent living wage" because none of this would matter if working people earned a fair bit more than benefit claimants get. The claimants are not getting too much. It's the workers who are paid too little.

georgimama, no it wouldn't.

Tax on £8000 at 22% would be about £35 per week. The tax credits are £78 per week.

georgie, sorry but some party removed this transferrable tax allowance, conservatives, hope I'm not wrong.

It equates to around £100 per week at 20% that's not a great deal. Politically its not worth worrying about. You can earn that with no real stress but then again it can effect how much a family gets in tax credits. Again its a case of number crunching with the lower paid coming off worse.

onager, its all about control of the little man, yes us. We are fighting about a few quid a week when the government are squandering our money left right and centre.

Fat cats are ripping us all off. Having money that we can only dream of. Someone has to pay.

Sorry, what I mean is that we would 'save' £12.16 per week by having my tax allowance also, but lose the £78 in tax credits, which means we would be £65.84 per week worse off.

the married couples allowance for those under 65 was abolished in April 2000 by Labour