To think people who talk about benefit claimaints negatively, but claim Working Tax credits (as do 9 out of ten families with children) are hypocrites

[harrietanderson]

People who talk about benefit claimants and scroungers negatively, but chances are they are claiming Working tax credits themselves are hypocrites.
9 out of 10 families with children qualify for this state benefit but still don't consider themselves to be state/taxpayer supported when in fact they are!

Yes of course I work. I said so, and even said how much I earn (not much eh?) I am on annual leave. Is that OK?

Who is suggesting anyone works for 50p an hour? (I know what you're doing there - it's the difference between the benefits and the earnings. That argument is bollocks - I pay a childminder £432 a month to look after DS, so I work for "£800" a month on that analysis. That's not much either is it?)

the problem with workfare schemes is that they NEVER take the cost of housing into account or other non-negotiable costs like council tax.

AND they NEVER take into account the inflexibility of childcare, particularly when you are a lone parent. not every job is M-F, 8-6.

Finally, they put all of the burden on the lone parent and never look at the fact that children are the result of two people, who share responsibility for that creation in most instances.

As such, so far, they're all complete bullshit.

georgimamma - I struggle to get by one what I currently get - if I were to start a 20hr a week job next week I wouldn't be able to pay my bills/feed my children. I wouldn't be slightly worse off - I'd be a LOT worse off - I've already had to swallow my pride and claim my free school meals for DS1 as it is.

How is it going to harm me by waiting for another 2-3yrs until I go back to work? DS3 is 16 months - I have a LOOOOONG time until I don't get CTC for my DC.

Not bollocks at all. Many SAHMS don't work because after paying childcare they make nothing - it might even cost them to work. £800 per month is 20 times more than the £10 per week in my illustration.

It is a totally relevant illustration as you currently have household income in addtion to yours. Would you work if your childcare bill was so high that you were left with £40 per month?

If not why would you expect a single mum to do so?

obviously I hope I won't be stuck in a minimum wage job for the rest of my working life, most of my motivation for starting my degree with the OU is to try and ensure that doesn't happen - but for a lot of people a minimum wage job is all they ever manage to get - despite working long, and hard hours trying to better themselves.

I think the childcare element of CTC and WTC would take care of the childcare costs in those circumstances LadyMuck.

And yes, I would still work because I am qualifying for a career and DS won't always be at home. I have to work to pay for my retirement.

FAQ, fair enough, if you plan to return to work in due course those 2-3 years aren't going to make much difference to your earning capacity when DS is 18.

Fio was the tiredness thing aimed at me.

I don't worry about that - I'm sure I found a few grey hairs this morning so working will only expedite the process

Most workfare schemes are bollocks, though, LM, as they are put forward hitherto, because they don't acknowledge the points mentioned and are therefore unworkable for a lot of low-income lone parents AND their children.

They don't address the loss of housing and council tax benefits when the person goes to work, or the fact that they are severely limited in what job they can take by the fact that childcare provisions are mostly M-F, 8-6, and what if you don't have family or a partner able or willing to provide care at other times?

Or even regional differences.

In some areas, jobs are mostly seasonal/temp. What do you do in between jobs?

It's not as simple as 'just move' because a) that costs a lot of money b) again, there is a serious problem with housing provision in this country, particularly for those on lower-incomes c) another problem is schools and oversubscription and if people have to send their young children (too young to use public transport by themselves and no school bus) to a school that is far from their home.

Georgimama, not if you earn £16,500, unless you are a single parent which you are not. You wouldn't be saving much for your pension from £10 per week, but I guess if you work for the state you might get a decent one.

Er expat, who was that addressed to? I seem to be the only LM, but I'm just indicating the nature of the benefit trap to Georgimama. I'm not a proponent of workfare.

I thought it was in response to me, LM, because like you, I think workfare schemes as they stand now are complete bullshit because they're short-sighted and inflexible and designed by people who obviously have never had housing issues or did so so long ago they don't remember anymore.

Sorry, didn't realise we were on the same page .

just becuase it doesn't work elseware doesn't mean that for certain sections of society - with certain circumstances inplace it could not be introduced.

i think the point that she is trying to make is that people who are working still get state help but feel it is okay to look down on others for getting state help.

before meeting dh i was on my own with dd1 and decided to take a part time job so that dd1 could go to nursery. i got far more in tax credits than i did in benefits and still got housing and council tax benefit, though most of my tax credits and wages were paid back out onto childcare leaving me unable to keep affording to work.

but i was still getting more money from the government working than i was when i was not working.

imo though there is reason or no to look down on anyone working or not if you are that way inclined. benefit claiments 'live' off the tax payers. those in low income jobs should have worked harder. those is high paying jobs put their careers before their children and work too hard etc etc.

I'd have had a bit more faith if they hadn't handed tax credits over to HMRC. Only a bit though.

Custy, I think that something could be done for young people, but with the huge reduction in the country's manufacturing base, it is hard to see what at times. Occasionally I get an urge to reintroduce National Service for any NEETs, but that would probably still have to be state-sponsored.

Where are you getting this £10 per week/50p per hour from? It is senseless.

No one has answered my question as how all this is to be paid for, if everyone for whom the situation between benefits/low pay is marginal decided to opt for benefits.

In answer to someone, yes, on the whole I do think that able bodied people should work, unless they have the private means to support themselves and are paying tax anyway.

I have every reason to slate benefits scroungers- my MIL (although wonderful in many ways)is one. She is partially deaf but could work somewhere and pay her way. Instead she lives in a council house with all the associated benefits.
She loves her DGC madly, enjoys spending time with them, has no committments except a cat. I recently asked if I could pay her to look after DGCs in the afternoons while I do a year full time course. Her response was 'well I don't know because I don't want to lose my benefits and can't earn more than 25 per week!' at her logic because I would pay her more than all her entitlements all together!
FIL is on disability allowance living in a residential village at a subsidised rate and yet can enter Mr Universe competitions for body building?

Georgimama, if a single parents gets say £350 per week worth in benefits (Income support, child benefit, child tax credit, free school meals, housing benefit, council tax benefit), but then gets offered a job paying £200 a week net and then gets tax credits of say £160 per week, they would be a whole £10 a week better off (I haven't included childcare and at best they will still have to pay 20% of their childcare bill). So whilst the cost to the state decreases significantly the financial benefit to the family may be so minimal that the parent doesn't want to work. Effectively the parents is working fulltime only to get that extra £10 per week.

Does it make a difference if those single parents are say volunteer parents helpers at school, or run toddler groups in their spare time? Does everyone have a responsibility to work as hard as possible to avoid getting state benefits such as tax credit? Should pensioners be allowed to retire if they are still ablebodied?

No, they are working full time to get £360 per week. Benefits are not "pay". They have not earned them.

I don't see why any parent of a school age child, who is able bodied, and not a full time carer of a disabled child, should not work. Benefits are a safety net, not a lifestyle.

It makes no difference whatsoever, I do all sorts of volunteer stuff in what spare time I have, do I get a tax rebate? Do I fuck.

We just have a completely fundamentally different view of social and personal responsibility, I don't see this as capable of resolution.

Should have said, "should not work if the alternative is that they will be on benefits." Obviously if household income is sufficient for needs on one wage, fair enough, do what you like.

Tax credits aren't a benefit. I think that was cleared up already.

well since this thread started things have changed slightly - I have just seen a job, school hours, term time only, which I'm very interested in - going to try and see if I can see my Lone Parent advisor so she can tell me how much better off I'd be a week/month before I go rushing into anything (don't think I have a great chance anyhow, it's a popular school, not only with parents - but also with people wanting to work there - and I have no experience)...

I would only have to sort out childcare for DS3 for the majority of the time, and inset days for all 3 of them........fingers x'ed please the figures work out in my favour (it would help me greatly as I have to move early next year - into rented so if I'm working it would broaden my options for places to rent).

I really hope that if the job is what you want to do, it stacks up in your favour FAQ.