to really dislike the phrase 'ALL that matters is you have a healthy baby'?

[Spidermama]

Because that's not ALL that matters. Of course it's the most important thing, but I fear some women allow themselves to be short changed when it comes to giving birth, or having the experience taken away from you, by medics and midwives who say 'ALL that matters is you have a healthy baby.'

Actually, a positive birth experience would be quite helpful too.

That just about says it all oops. I am very sorry for your loss - how horrific for you - and wish you all the best with your pregnancy.

Of course, the fact that DD was healthy was the most important thing to me, and me being healthy would have come a close second (if it had actually happened). But it does get right on my nerves when people say "it was only one day". Would they say that to someone who had been raped? I felt completely violated, and I had been assaulted in the technical sense too, as I was given an episiotomy without my consent.

I had no illusions about a wonderful orgasmic fulfilling birth experience either.

Oh meant to say- oppsadasiyangel will be sending vibes/wishes/prayers that it does all go well for you this time. Hope you have supportive midwives etc. xxx

It's easy to say that you would rather a healthy baby and that the feelings of birth trauma fade. If you have both mental and physical lasting and possibly permanent effects from giving birth, that has an impact on your family and new baby too. My ability to breast feed, walk and look after my baby were seriously affected by what happened. And I could easily have died from the infection leaving my son with no mother. Some people might have developed PND and that could affect their relationship with their child forever.

This time round I am still not bothered about a spiritual birth but I would like to come away from it with a healthy baby and a healthy me, for all our sakes.

TheProvinciaLady, I had physical repercussions from the birth of my DS, but they still faded into insignificence because I had my gorgeous, healthy little boy.
I don't think MNers are talking about people who have nearly died through giving birth. Of course that's a different kettle of fish altogether.

It's the same for me Gateau - the fact that I can't walk that well or far these days and that I can no longer do the hobby I enjoy properly is not as important to me as having a healthy son. But it did make our first few months together rather horrible as I couldn't walk up stairs holding him and I was isolated because I hadn't the strength to take him out. My point is that other people did not have the right to tell me that I should just be grateful DS was okay - that was my decision to make.

Fair enough.
My original point was about - in my opinion there being too much focus on "the perfect birth" rather than the baby. For instance, it annoys me when women have a "normal", safe birth but are devasted because it didn;t go exactly as they wanted - and they have a healthy baby. In these cases, it seems to be all about the women rather than the baby.
Whereas, when people have had traumatic birth experiences I can understand waht you're saying.

ProvincialLady,
Having serious and lasting physical damage through child birth is extremely rare, and I think that is something totally different.

I was traumatized after ds1 was born, I lost so much blood it was touch and go for a moment, but I did not know that then. Yet, the memory faded quite soon. I had however borderline PND.

After the birth of my second, I had terrible SPD, and could not walk for months, being stuck upstairs in bed as I could not walk up and down. Heck, I could not even go to toilet on my own, turn over in bed, or even hold thet baby. I also had pnd, so struggled a lot both mentally and physically. Due to my spd, there are still things I cant do, and I still wake up in pain some mornings. Yet, the most important thing will for me always be a healthy baby. Looking back, I would gladly go through the same again, just to have him in my life. HE matters more to me than my own health.

We all have different experiences and differing opinions, some place emphasis on one thing, some on something else.

Quint how on earth did you manage like that when you already had another child to look after? That is my big concern with my next birth, that I am physically able to look after both children when DH goes back to work.

I know of a woman who gave birth recently and it was pretty much a text book natural birth and not too painful etc - but she still has PTSS from it. I guess we can't always be in control of our feelings or reactions even if they don't seem logical to other people.

I didnt. MIL came to stay. That made matters so much worse, as she fed my 3 year old chocolate for breakfast, dressed him in the same dirty clothes as the day before, etc, and we also ended up falling out over something extremely trivial as I was on such strong medicatin I couldnt think straight. My sister and her daughter had also come, as had a colleague of my dh from abroad. She had to stay at our house too. We had a full house! My sister and MIL shared the housework, and my dh cared for me and the newborn as much as he could. Then when baby was 5 weeks old we decided to chuck all these people out, and get an au pair in for a few months. Best thing we could have done.

But you have to wonder what these health professionals have seen during their career. It must change your perspective on it all, once you've had to watch a mother or child die during childbirth or become terribly handicapped, you ARE grateful that everyone is ok in the end, it becomes the main goal.

If you've had a life without witnessing this kind of tradgedy I guess it may seem flippant.

Its good to read this thread as have recently starting feeling guilty for how much I complained about DD when she was younger (she cried pretty much constantly and I found it hard).
She is now settled (7 months) and has been ok for 3 months or so, its easy to forget how horrible and difficult things were.
Obviously a crying baby is better than a poorly baby but the crying still matters and it still made me and DH fractious and very upset.
Lots of people had said "at least she is healthy" and I wanted to bite their heads off (not literally)
I think that people mean well and at the end of it their health is all that is important, but when you have had 3 hours sleep and have to contend with an unsettled/upset baby for the other 21, life is not much fun.
Anyway .... she is ok now and more than worth it. I even want to do it all again!

This phrase used to annoy me too after having 2 very scary emergency C sections.

Then a good friend had a very seriously ill baby and I appreciated the sentiment as more than a truism

"If you've had a life without witnessing this kind of tradgedy I guess it may seem flippant"

TBH I find hp's saying this (ie "the most important thing is that your baby is healthy") incredibly disrespectful because it implies that somehow you need reminding that your child's life and health is of paramount importance. Can I ask any mother here - does anything matter to you more than your child's well being? No - of course nothing does.

Saying "the most important thing is that your baby is healthy" not only implies that somehow you need reminding of this (you don't), but it's also a way of diminishing the importance of YOUR well-being as a mother.

TBH I wonder how often HP's say this by way of comforting themselves about the extent to which substandard care has contributed to the problems that so many of us experience during childbirth and pregnancy.

Just read the whole thread (sorry am guilty of only reading the OP and a few on the first page)

I know my example is trivial compared to everyone else. Maybe I am just selfish/horrible but for me those first 4 months (with a healthy but not at all happy) baby were very difficult.

I dont have any serious implications, and she won't even remember it. I don't have a horror birth story (not once I had to have an epidural anyway) and I know that I didnt really have anything to 'complain' about. I just have to say that it was (to date) the hardest 4 months of my (sheltered?!) life.

Feel like maybe my response isn't really 'serious' enough to be on this thread.

What I was trying to say is that the "at the least the baby is healthy" remark completely dismisses how the baby behaves. My DD was in discomfort (tummy) but it wasnt serious, in fact it was no more than reflux, but it took so long to diagnose and then to successfully treat and all along I was told to be thankful that she was otherwise healthy (which I AM, but its not helpful at the time)

Am rambling ... will go!

totally agree with the OP. I am still having flashbacks of DSs birth and first few weeks and he's 22 months old now. Yes I am grateful that he is healthy now but it doesn't mean that everything is ok. I often think that people use the phrase outlines in the OP to brush off your concerns and avoid having to discuss them.

Yes I think saying things like that makes mothers think their own feelings / health are not important or valid.

A (childfree female) doctor said to me, when I was querying why DS was premature (35 weeker), "well, he was only a bit early wasn't he?" Yes love but he had severe jaundice, no suck reflex, low birthweight and other probs which have continued well into his first year. So instead of making inane remarks why don't we work out how to stop this happening next time?

tittybangbang - you're spot on. Of course DD surviving as intact as possible was our most pressing concern. I certainly didn't need reminding, as not only did we almost lose DD an hour after she was born (we thought that she had* died) but we know of 6 stillbirths/neonatal deaths in our close friends and family.

aggree wit alicet, as important as the acctual birth may be, im sure no one who wanted a normal birth, with no pain relief/ pain relief, or a water birth or home birth is going to say no i dont want forceps or a csection if the baby is distressed because it would foil their perfect birth plan. it just doesnt work like that sometimes, i wanted a perfect normal delivery but after having contractions from thursday, hospital on saturday and no progress from 6cm dialation for more than 12 hours and my daughters fluctuating heart rate the consultant recomemded a section beacuse waiting to dialate any more would mean putting baby at risk of brain damage, i was treated very well, no complaints in the delivery suite,and a happy healthy baby, i was more than glad just to have gotten through it safe and baby was ok. so it is kinda important but YANBU to want a good birth experience

perfect Birth is NOT about stupid little things though...I didn't care that I would be in pain, I knew I would be....it was my 3. time....yes I had high expactations...but still I was realistic enough....however....I never ever in a millions nightmare expected to go into hospital, after I laboured perfectly fine (if more painful than ever) and got to 10 cm's dilatation....all of a sudden an air of emergency broke out...and, at teh time there was no reason for it...I mean, even my HB midwifes did not expect me to go through what I did...which was Spinal Block, Ventouse and then Emergency C-sectin...but, ebcause they panicked me and because the mw in that hospital and teh Consultant I saw were utter [insert choicewords here]....it made it ratehr traumatic...
All I wated was to have finally a Hombirth after 2 normal Birth..not to much to ask, surely....

yes, of course, in the long term I m happy it was me that was hurt the most...although...not sure about that...because ys has been the most fractious and senstive Baby ever and was hard work (that didn't help).....and I thin there was somehting or other pulled to make him that way....but yeah, in the longterm all is fine....but, I did feel raped...having an arse of a doctor stick his hand into you in the most rough and vicous manner without annoucing he would do that maybe makes you feel that way....and I felt I was just a bit of flesh on teh table to be done wiht as they wanted, there weer no regards whatsoever to my being....ffs, the stupid mw asked dh if I was always that hysterical ( I was scared out of my brains and actually thought ds might have died by that time, as I hadn't felt him since leaving home...he jsut took a nap I suppose...but with all the panik, I thought there was something wrong, you see.....)...
yes, even though ys is 4, and even though now I feel mostly fine....I can still recall every moment of that Birth, the same as I can do with ms and es....just with them I have mostly fond memories....so....yes, Birth experience does matter....and honest, I did NOt expect a painless blabla labour...I was rather realistic of what may feel...

Riven, have you ever been a member of a Yahoo Homebirth group? Around 2004?

Tittybangbang...you are totally right about them listening skills....like a supervisor at my work who also does the teamteach courses says...when a Kid plays up and is distressed he will say: You talk, I listen....!
And that si what he will do then....uninterupted! And only after finished he will ask the young person what they think can be done to make them feel better....ratehr than talk rubbish and platitudes....and that is something I most definitely will work on for myself...

oops, got into ranting mode there

I had a hard first birth, and luckily DS is fine.

DS2's birth was much "easier" - I got to hospital at 10cms and just had gas and air.

DS2 though has all sorts of problems, in fact DS1 should have the problems his brother has.

My second experience of labour was "lovely" for me, but I would go to hell and back again,for his to be "normal".

So I do actually agree that we need to stop thinking about our ideals and think about the baby, the baby IS the most important thing at the end of the day.