AIBU to think that once you have paid your childcare, its not really worth working.? Is it that you just don`t want to look after your own kid. prefering to stick them in daycare as soon as the shine wears off, it really bugs me!

[discusturd]

Some go from 7-6 and never see there parents, I know I will get slated but in the nursery I work some kids hardly know who their parents are.

I would agree each to their own. For me, I found satisfaction at home as much as working f/t.

TBB - in anser to your question

i would call my party.
" lets collapse the economy" party

join me

TBB, I completely agree with your posts

I think too many people use the "being at home is a luxury I can't afford" line when they could afford it with a few cut backs, but instead of going without,they choose not to, but they don't want to admit this or face it themselves. This doesn't refer to people who work just to pay the rent/mortgage, but I suspect it does refer to many poeple with kids in F/T care who won't give up any of their pre kids lifestyle.

Chelsygirl, what about those of us who could afford to stay at home with our kids but actively choose not to as we like working and think our kids will not lose out by being in childcare?

...and don't do it to 'pay the mortgage'

what about the

If i dont go back to work/college i will literally shrivel up and die inside - stance?

is it the best thing for the child if the parent hates the SAHM lifestyle?

some women don't get off on 3 years or more of shitty nappies and fingerpainting.

if you want to make out like your some perfect mother becuase you stay at home all day with your kids then fine

but to argue that people should remain poor with stagnant social mobility is quite frank;y disgraceful.

to ignore the fact that some women hate, hate, hate it - hate that life, resent their children for them being there - and just 'plod on' or 'get through'

to ignore the fact that the dads get off scott free - becuase women should be at home changing nappies and finger painting - oh and baking organic goods? that they can afford whilst their dh is working down the factory on minimum wage

so the mum stays home - the dad brings in minimum wage

lets start on those poor bastards - they have a sahm - but still its not good enough

do you feed your kids organic?
do you play with them enough
i hope you don't let them watch the television
do you read to them enough
dedicate your whole existance to them
you are nothing - you are mother

It isn't always about hating being with your children though. Some people want to carry on working because working is what they like doing and putting their children into child care should NOT be seen as neglecting them or palming them off on someone else. Many women (And men) make the decision to put their children into childcare because they are not the kind of people who think childbirth changes your whole life completly and the system is there to help carry on working if they want to!

...and there is NOTHING wrong with making that choice andn it's not always based upon not wanting to be knee deep in nappies!

custardo, lets open those doors...

I hate cooking
I hate arts and craft
I hate I spy
I hate 'lets pretend'
I hate housework

Unfortunately all 3 of those things increase when you have kids

so I go to work.

However I love my kids, I love my dh...but I don't have to spend every waking hour with either of them to be a good person.

Ra Ra childcare.

what they are forgetting is
quality versus qUantity

you can boast to shit about being a sahm if you spend all day watching jeremy kyle and doing sod all else - your hardly in like for mum of the universe award now are you

"Good. I'm also sure that the same could be said for lots of other families both in the same situation as you, and managing life differently."

But the thing is - unlike you, I've not felt the need to comment on other people's choices or situations. You've taken my comments about the possible drawbacks of group childcare for babies as a critique of yours and other people's choices, when in fact it's nothing of the sort.

"I didn't mention the research about the effect on children of a lack of fatherly input in order to impugn your spouse, but rather, to illustrate the essential pointless of citing such 'research' in this context"

I don't think it's pointless AT ALL. I think the research is very interesting, and have discussed it with my DH! I think these things help you build an understanding of how the choices we make might be affecting our children in the longer term. I'm hoping it will make him think about the hours he's putting in at work and will encourage him to look into this issue more, perhaps begin to look harder for ways forward in changing his work patterns.

"You don't actually know what hours I work, nor how long I spend with my children, nor when I went back to work after their bith, nor how much time they have with their father. That's because I haven't told you."

No. I didn't comment on your personal situation did I? I just asked you a question.

"And that's because I see debate based on personal anecdotes as kind of pointless, especially when the subtext is defending one's parenting choices by attacking those of others"

But you also think it's pointless looking at the research evidence on this too?

So if anecdotal evidence and research evidence aren't 'admissable' when it comes to developing our understanding of the issue and thinking through our choices, what else can we rely on to build a picture? After all, when you're making choices you can't see into the future can you? Don't we need these things, along with our knowledge of our own particular situations, to help us build the fullest possible picture?

"My use of the phrase 'vast amount of time' was a rhetorical flourish."

Maybe it would be fairer to describe it as a freudian slip - certainly for me it says more about how you feel about how you perceive the time you apportion to work and that you apportion to your children.

Chelsygirl - my brother and SIL fall into this category. They spend more on cappucino in a month than I spend on clothes for the entire family but are always complaining about the financial pressure of being a two parent working family with two children under 3. My SIL went back to work f/t when both hers were 6 months. My suspician is that she simply can't cope psychologically or emotionally with being at home with her children for any length of time. She has very low self-esteem. What she does have seems to be irreparably bound to her position at work and earning a good salary. In her case I think her children are better off being looked after by other people during the day. It's not SIL's fault - it's just the person she is and she can't help how she feels. Feel sorry for my neice and nephew though. I'm sure they'll be fine, they're bright and lovely and SIL and BIL have mostly had good childcare in place (a couple of disasters along the way with run ins with their childminder and a nursery they used closing down), but I would have wanted them to have had a better time of it if it had been possible.

Here here Custy.

Only just plucked up courage to have a look at this one!

i do think that SOME people are not cut out to have kids though, and they have kids as almost somekind of thing you do.
like a checklist of things you do in life.
maybe it should be recognised more, if you don't want kids fair enough.
people should stop trying to get people that don't have kids to have kids with the old, are you engaged yet? whens the wedding? when aree you going to have a baby?
i don't there is anything wrong in saying its not the life for you.

Oh, Custy. Breath fo fresh air

They got to you too on this one, didn't they ? I lost the plot a while back with some of the posters.

baking organic goods

that old chestnut

heaven forbid anyone disagrees with the childcare system and chooses not to buy into it, they'll get a mountain of abuse on MN

In all seriousness though Custy - there's a big gap between what would happen to the economy if the working week was uniformly reduced to 35 hours and pay for every worker was inflated to what's needed to keep a family on one workers wage,

.....and doing things like making adjustments to the tax system, supporting the technological and social changes that would make flexible working more possible for parents, and doing something about the appalling expense of housing in the UK - all of which things would make one parent staying at home while their child is a baby, or parents being able to share the care of their children while still both working part time possible for far larger numbers of people........

But of course if you think that it doesn't matter if both parents HAVE to work part-time because you see full-time childcare for babies as being entirely benign, then what incentive is there to push for these changes?

"if both parents HAVE to work part-time"

Sorry - should read "if both parents HAVE to work FULL TIME"

"i do think that SOME people are not cut out to have kids though, and they have kids as almost somekind of thing you do.
like a checklist of things you do in life."

My SIL admits that she wasn't that bothered about having children. Personally I think she got pregnant (accidentally on purpose) because after 8 years of living with my brother and him refusing to commit himself to sharing a mortgage with her, let alone anything else she needed to find a way of moving the relationship onto a firmer footing.

And it worked - as soon as she got pregnant my brother caved in and bought a house with her. He'd never walk away from his children or from her now. And in a way I'm grateful to her. He was one of those 33 going on 21 types - very immature and indecisive. He never would have had the courage to actively choose to become a father, yet he's turned out to be fantastic at it. It's changed his life for the better in so many ways.

She's a funny person really. Doesn't like children at all. She's a teacher and often talks about the children she teaches as 'effing bastards and slags'. She loves her own but doesn't really want to spend much time with them. I think she's bored by them. I would never say she shouldn't have had them though. They're beautiful, healthy children who are loved and well cared for (if not actively enjoyed much) by both parents. I'm sure they'll grow up fine.

So - all those complaining about working mothers.

My plan is to have a baby, take 12 months off on maternity leave then go back to my job. I plan to put my child into the work creche which is based on the same site as my office. My mum has just retired and lives about 5 miles away but I wouldn't expect her to look after my child. She may offer, but I am not expecting it.

I will drop my child off at 9 and pick him/her up at 5.30.

I won't be doing this because I HAVE to work, but because I WANT to carry on working.

I may choose to work more flexible hours (A prescedent has been set in my department) but I intend to work Monday to Friday.

Is that not ok?

titty, to be fair, some of these changes are happening - what with changes to maternity leave, paternity leave, increase in child benefit. They are not happening at the rate and to the extent you describe or would like, but they are happening, in the glacial way that these changes have to be introduced to not rock the economy.

The same economy that keeps you and your family afloat.

And government policy does not exist solely to support families, though there are very good reasons to ensure that the next generation of adults and taxpayers are brought up to contribute to society. So whilst it will some way, it will not go the whole hog and pay an able bodied person a living wage for 3 or how many years you like just because they had working reproductive organs and the opportunity to have sex.

"But the thing is - unlike you, I've not felt the need to comment on other people's choices or situations."

"my brother and SIL fall into this category. They spend more on cappucino in a month than I spend on clothes for the entire family but are always complaining about the financial pressure of being a two parent working family with two children under 3. My SIL went back to work f/t when both hers were 6 months. My suspician is that she simply can't cope psychologically or emotionally with being at home with her children for any length of time. She has very low self-esteem. What she does have seems to be irreparably bound to her position at work and earning a good salary. In her case I think her children are better off being looked after by other people during the day. It's not SIL's fault - it's just the person she is and she can't help how she feels. Feel sorry for my neice and nephew though."

What custy said .

Yes - I hold up my hands there almostblue. I have been judgemental about my SIL.

But she's family and we're allowed to feud!

Would like to add that I've been needled horribly by this woman for years and years, whereas I've been a fucking saint and NEVER responded in kind. The bile has got to leak out somewhere though. Thank god for mumsnet!

• abso-blimmin-lutely, TBB.

I realise I'm arguing myself in circles, btw. There are as many inconsistencies in my position as I perceive in yours; quite possibly more. It's a work in progress for me.

But to clarify:

1. I don't think the current situation, where some women are unwillingly separated from their children at an early age is right. I do think that as a society we should be addressing this.
2. I think there are some women for whom working full or part time is absolutely the right thing, both for them and their families.
3. I think there are huge issues regarding standards of paid childcare in this country. Again, I think we should be addressing this.
4. I genuinely don't think that citing research suggesting that parents' choices are damaging their children is helpful 'in this context', ie on a parenting forum. It just puts certain contributors into an inevitable defensive mode and effetively kills constructive debate. As does 'Well I do this and it works for me'.
5. You're now going to ask what I'd put in its place, aren't you?
6. Um... a collective attempt to draw out the positives of the current situation and suggest ways to improve it further...?
7. I am a fabulous but flawed mother. A combination of nature, nurture and circumstance makes me thus. I promise you, I am neither envious nor critical of your specific situation (with specific reference to the amount of time you spend with your children).

1. Oh, and I don't think fathers are factored into this kind of discussion nearly enough. Poor bastards.

But to clarify:

1. I don't think the current situation, where some women are unwillingly separated from their children at an early age is right. I do think that as a society we should be addressing this.

Agree!

1. I think there are some women for whom working full or part time is absolutely the right thing, both for them and their families.

I agree. But I still don't agree that their babies are best off doing long hours in group childcare if a good alternative is available.

1. I think there are huge issues regarding standards of paid childcare in this country. Again, I think we should be addressing this.

Agree

1. I genuinely don't think that citing research suggesting that parents' choices are damaging their children is helpful 'in this context', ie on a parenting forum. It just puts certain contributors into an inevitable defensive mode and effetively kills constructive debate. As does 'Well I do this and it works for me'.

We'll agree to differ on this one. I think evidence based information can be very useful when it comes to helping us make, or validate our choices.

1. You're now going to ask what I'd put in its place, aren't you?

Oh go on then!

1. Um... a collective attempt to draw out the positives of the current situation and suggest ways to improve it further...?

1. I am a fabulous but flawed mother. A combination of nature, nurture and circumstance makes me thus. I promise you, I am neither envious nor critical of your specific situation (with specific reference to the amount of time you spend with your children).

!

I'm going to call it quits on this one now. My house is VILE - I have a laundry mountain I'm going to need a sherpa to help me tackle, and DH (who's on holiday) is about to divorce me over the amount of time I've spent on mn the last few days.

"But I still don't agree that their babies are best off doing long hours in group childcare if a good alternative is available."

so basically - even though I could probably afford to be a SAHM you think I am wrong for deciding that I would still work and leave my child in a creche?