AIBU to think that once you have paid your childcare, its not really worth working.? Is it that you just don`t want to look after your own kid. prefering to stick them in daycare as soon as the shine wears off, it really bugs me!

[discusturd]

Some go from 7-6 and never see there parents, I know I will get slated but in the nursery I work some kids hardly know who their parents are.

(appalling spelling, formatting and grammar; sorry!)

Swedish nursery education cannot be compared with that offered in the UK. Children in

The Swedish approach to early-childhood (nursery) education is so different from that in the UK.

Everything starts later. Due to a generous eighteen-month parental leave, children do not and cannot begin collective care until after the age of 1. Most then attend a förskolan (preschool) for children ages 1-5. At age six, most go to a preparation year, and compulsory education finally begins at age seven.
The national preschool curriculum places an emphasis on socialization. The maximum fee is around £150 a month (calculated on income)

Parents have a greater choice

Preschool is an educational group activity for enrolled children between the ages of 1?6 years. As a rule, preschools are open year-round and for most of the day. Open hours are adapted to the work- or study hours of the parents or to the needs of the child.

Family daycare is in-home care where a childminder takes care of enrolled children while the parents work or study. Activities are generally located in the childminder?s home. Children placed in family daycares also have access to open preschool activities.
There is also so-called ?three-family system? is also considered a family daycare, i.e., where a childminder takes care of the children of two or three families in the home of one of the families.

Open preschool provides stay-at-home parents and childminders an opportunity to develop, together with preschool staff, educational group activities for the children in their care.

Children are cared for in small groups by highly qualified staff and settings closely resemble a home environment.

?DH is out the house 14 hours a day and when he walks in at 8pm exhausted??

Whilst we?re talking about ?learning?, and ?role models?, it occurs to me to ask - what gender are your children, TTB?

I have two boys, one girl.

Do you think they're learning something negative about gender relationships from the way we run our home?

"How on earth do researchers prove parity in all other areas?"

They can't. They can only control for a reasonable range of variables.

You hear this argument in relation to research into the health benefits of breastfeeding all the time. Usually from people who can't/chose not to breastfeed. It's quite a good argument because you really can't argue with it, other than to say - you can bet your bottom dollar you don't disregard ALL recommendations relating to the care of children (for example on safe sleeping) on the strength that the research doesn't account for every single possible variable. You just use this argument as a rationale to disregard the information that makes you feel uncomfortable about your choices.

Does anyone feel totally comfortable with their choices though?Id like to meet them.I am forced to work and FWIW do think its damaging to my young children.I hate it but there is no choice.However ive got friends who are sahm's and worry that their kids arent 'socialized', who lose their rag with them alot because it is hard work, who worry that they arent providing good role models in not working outside the home.. etc

No parent ive ever met feel totally comfortable/not guilty to a degree about the choices they make/have to make re their kids.

mrz you are quite right with your info - although in my experience paraents return to work latest as their child turns one - they share the first year 6mth each parent. Some return earlier. the reason that 12mths is key is because that is the point at which they have statutory entitlment to a nursery place at a very subsidised level (most nurseries offer it before 12mth but IME of working 5 yrs for Swedish company, 12mth is the standard (also I think the very high parental pay drops to a much lower level at age 12 mths). In Sweden, only 3% of children age 1-6 are cared for by a family member. In Denmark 2% of 3 year olds are cared for by a parent.

The family day-care thing has declined rapidly (now less than 40% I think) and been replaced by nursery provision in nurseries attached to schools, so is pretty comparable. I think one of the key differences is that all of this is state-run to what seems to be very high standards.

I think the fact that these children are growing up perfectly normally and well-adjusted reflects that the problem is in the quality of the care and not the format. And as has been pointed out some pages ago, there are too many Vicky Pollards in our nurseries and not enough funding. now THAT is something I will agree with, not the concept of WOHM itself. Wouldn't it be nice if we could stop fighting each other and start shouting at the government instead?

All we are saying is give peas a chance (sorry, naff MN joke)

"Do you think they're learning something negative about gender relationships from the way we run our home?"

I don't presume to have any idea about what your children are learning. There is, however, some very interesting research about the long-term effect on children of being raised in a home where the father works excessively long hours (even if this does fund a lifestyle where the mother is privileged enough to be able to choose to spend vast amounts of her time with them.

"You just use this argument as a rationale to disregard the information that makes you feel uncomfortable about your choices."

By 'you', TTB, do you mean me? And if so, on what evidence do you base this claim?

I think DH being out the house those hours is bad for him, for me and for our children. Unfortunately there's simply no way around it - it's just not possible for him to go part time. We couldn't afford to pay our mortage, even if I made up the hours that he wasn't working. I get paid too little, and his work would be very difficult to do on a part time basis.

I do find it quite funny that you think of me as having had a 'vast amount of time' with my children, because I've not worked f/t while they've been tiny. It doesn't seem as though it's been 'vast'. It's gone really quickly actually. And I've worked in the evenings and at weekends when DH has been around, plus done a DIPHE and voluntary work over that time. Been busy actually. Maybe just looks 'vast' from where you're sitting because you feel you've had so little time with your children.

In any case - it's not been much of a choice really. Not a 'luxury'. I couldn't have afforded childcare for three children if I'd gone back to work full-time. Don't earn enough.

If you're depressed, ill or have other reasons why staying and looking after your little children may be very difficult then ofcourse finding alternatives may be the best solution. However as with the breastfeeding debate that doesn't mean there isn't an ideal which may not always be possible. I couldn't bf my son as he was very ill and not strong enough. Do I think he will be messed up for life- no. But I still think breastfeeding is the best option if possible.
I have worked in nurseries in the past and did end up feeling a bit like the op. Much of the care of babies and toddlers was insensitive. Ofcourse there are wonderful people who work with little ones but as ttb says many are underpayed girls who are fairly emotionally deprived themselves. I did not want to run the risk with my own fairly demanding (although lovely!) baby.
This is not to make people feel guilty but I do think we are in a bit of a crisis in terms of adequate childcare. The pay is so poor which shows how much as a society we value the development of the next generation.
Being at home with small children is hard work, as is working in a nursery with them. For some this is not the best option but does that mean we shouldn't think about it and even dare to admit that for those who can manage it it may be best.

TTB, I?m glad I amuse you ? but you are making an awful lot of assumptions about me; the main one being that I have even the remotest hint of an issue about how you choose to arrange your family. I?m sure what you are doing is the best/wisest choice for you, even if it has involved compromises. Call me a fluffy old Pollyanna, but I like to think that this is the case for most mothers, especially those who are concerned enough to discuss their choices on an internet forum.

You have specifically raised concerns about full-time childcare for young children. To support your point, you have cited research, and you have discussed your own position. So those are the strands of your argument I am exploring.

As you have just said, your own position is far from ideal. Maybe you are arguing so passionately because it?s important to you to feel that not going to full time childcare will have a positive enough effect on your children (?Among adults, the strongest predictor in both men and women of an individual?s altruism ? the ability to care for others - is the level of care taken by the father in their childhood.?) to outweigh the negative impact on all of you of your husband?s long hours?

Or is that just a cheap shot raised in a debate by someone who actually doesn?t know you at all?

FWIW, I strongly suspect that the ideal situation for young children is to be raised by a mother who does not work, in a family that is supported by a father who does work, but no more than 35 hours a week. A situation that has become practically an unthinkable fantasy in the society that we have, collectively, developed.

Anything else is a compromise. And to suggest that one compromise is more damaging than another is naïve at best and downright insulting at worst.

Unthinkable fantasy? Anything else is a compromise?

Parp.

sighs

A situation that has become practically an unthinkable fantasy for those who are of a similar opinion to the one I have just expressed (an opinion that is, like all opinions, largely subjective) in the society that we have, collectively, developed.

Anything else is a compromise [repeat to ]. And to suggest that one compromise is more damaging than another is naïve at best and downright insulting at worst.

And what do we say after we've parped, hmmm?

From another thread, because now I'm pissed off on behalf of people who have to go to work. They get enough of a guilt trip already.

...One thing I am not sure gets pointed out enough though on all of this is that this WOHM bashing is particularly vile when you consider that the people you are attacking are the very ones who have no choice. Every person I know who lives in a large house and could downsize has a committed experienced nanny at home, and we don't use nurseries on anything like the basis that is suggested. Where we do use nurseries (and we do, quite often) is to introduce our kids to a social setting and give them some variety and so on. The only peope who do use nurseries for long hours are, I am fairly sure, those people stuck in the middle of society who really don't have the same downsize options and need to use these options to pay the mortgage and so on, not because they want to. And it is these WOHM mothers who work through need and not through choice who are the very people who struggle most with stress - not the SAHM, nor the WOHM who work through choice (there is research to back this - I can find it if anyone wants).

It kind of seems to be that some MNers are just kicking people when they're down. Which my WOHM, neglectful, compromising mum always taught me wasn't nice.

titty, almostblue explains it so much better than I can.

Knowing the positive effect of a father's involvement in their child's life, why is it alright for you to not follow that in your family's circumstances? Could it be for all the (valid) reasons you described? It is because notwithstanding any research out there, your family's circumstances are unique to you and no amount of research in the world can tell you what choice to make on the balance of risk?

This is what I mean by "Where research falls down is its applicability in individual cases". Perhaps instead of 'applicability', I should have used the word 'suitability of following it'.

The research still stands within the 4 corners of its parameters. But as a parent, I can decide not to follow it based on informed judgment. I am not disregarding the value of the research (although I reserve the right to assess its quality). I simply have chosen not to follow it in MY Family's Circumstances. It is called Informed Choice.

chelsygirl, in response to your earlier question about attachment parenting, it is the parenting style that is the antithesis of Gina Ford/Truby King and namely carrying baby around in slings, bf-ing, demand-feeding, co-sleeping.

As for the daily cost of a day nursery, for below 2s, it costs £1,100 a month for ft nursery at my part of London, going down to about £900 for over twos. This makes it about £55 a day (under twos) or £45 (over twos). The actual daily rate is higher because my nursery's fee structure encourages ft and more regular use. In addition, I have heard of Central London nurseries charging up to £1,400 per month for babies.

squiffy, I think you're misunderstanding me (but it's nice of you to be pissed off on my behalf...)

A choice that involves compromise is not by definition a bad one. On the contrary, done well, compromising is about making the best and fairest choice, for everyone, even if that means that some people don't get precisely what they want. It's a necessary skill and one I'm constantly trying to teach my boys.

tori32, happyhoney, as for your comment that it is unfair for me to practise attachment parenting and put my baby in childcare, you have just reminded me why I never considered using childminders. Certainly, I don't expect a childminder by herself to carry my baby everywhere. Paradoxically, my dcs' nursery, despite its lack of 'home environment', was able to accommodate the transition of my clingy dcs into nursery beautifully.

When I asked how they settled ds for naptimes (because I was expecting huge problems), there was a young carer who told me with a lovely smile that she had cuddled my ds and held him the whole hour-long naptime. I almost cried there and then that she would do it for my ds and I certainly did not expect it. But it is possible in a nursery because there are 4 carers at all times. Observing from my time spent in the room, once babies are settled, they don't require much input from carers with all the toys and distractions around. This young carer (who ordinarily would be looked on less favourably than an older one) does not come with all the baggage that an older carer (and possibly mother herself) would have. Pros and cons. After 2 months, my ds made the adjustment and could be put down for naps.

I practise attachment parenting from necessity, not choice. My dcs were vocal, very physical, cuddly and strong-minded children as babies and for them, my instinct was to 'go with the flow'. To suggest to me that I should adopt a different style less suited to my dcs' personality so that they can settle in childcare is the tail wagging the dog. If a childminder or nursery manager suggested that to me, they would clearly be the wrong choice for my dcs and would appear to me like they were just looking for an easy life. It also demonstrates the fundamental misconception that children expect the same from a nursery as they do at home. My dcs, who attended from 1 year old, were well able to tell the difference, behaved much better at nursery and would do things there (like sleep on their own, eat well, play well) in a way they would not do at home, and still don't. They are lucky to have the experience of high quality childcare.

Blueshoes,

How can a childminder who works on her own care for all her charges, cook, clean up etc if she has to hold a baby for an hour while it sleeps? IMO, you had no idea that your nursery would care on your parenting style and that it very unfair to a child who is used to being parented in this way. You have implied that childminders are lazy - I find what your nursey did (allowing a your child to sleep in a NN arms) very lazy and unfair to the other charges.

happyhoney, I do understand that a CM has other charges to care for so I don't expect her to carry my baby for an hour. Hence, as I explained before, I never considered CM as a viable childcare option.

As for trying to put the frighteners on me about whether the nursery care about my parenting style, I have sat in the room for hours at their request during the settling in period. I do have a gut feel, you know. Again, I have explained in my previous post, settled babies don't seem to require much input and so they can jig the numbers around. As for being unfair to the other charges, well, it is the newly arrived children that require the most input, my ds being one of them, and the holding only went on for 2 months until he made the adjustment. Just like a parent with more than one child, their attention goes to the one with the greatest need, as it should. It is only for an hour, not the Whole Day!

I loved how the nursery was so flexible and weren't put off by my child's (higher) needs and willing to accommodate. They seemed to take each baby as they came and this to me was key. Chelsygirl, take note of this!

Happyhoney, I have carried my babies around with me for hours. It is possible to do while having several other younger children and other things to do. It's hard work but it is possible.

I have a friend who became a nursery nurse a couple years ago. She said it was the easiest option for the extra money (she was supposed to have 5 good GCSEs but they waivered that as she had a child and was 25). Said friend was not exactly good with kids, her own or otherwise. Anyway, instead of do the practical studies required (observing a child for several hours a week) she just got friends with kids to sign it to say she had had hours of experience a week with small kids. I always thought it was bad and if she was interested she would have done it properly. She gives nursery nurses a bad name and often talks about kids in the nursery and their parents. I think it should be harder to get into and better paid.

Juuule,

For you that was possible, there is no way I could do this - I would fine it to much on my back. And quite honestly I would not want to. And thanks I am aware that some people may be able to do/want to do it. I personally would not send my child to a CM who did this though.

If a parent had approached me and said that this was their parenting style and they expected me to adopt the same style I would have turned the work down as they need to stay at home with their child or get real.

As an ex childminder I did have children who wanted to be picked and constantly entertained and they are the ones who find a CM's environment difficult. Some parent's seem to be under the illision that their child is the centre of the universe and it's just not true. At home parent's have other jobs to do and that is also true of childminders. TBH 'no one likes a naughty child' and children who are constantly pandered to are IMHO - naughty.

All these arguing and criticising isn't nice. As mums we all have difficult decisions to make. In my experience mums only work if they have to pay the bills, etc, not to fund expensive hols, clothes etc. If you are lucky enough not to work well done you. If you have to work it's tough but get the best nursery you can afford and try to maximise your time with your children. We can all be good mothers - it doesn't have to be so black and white.

happyhoney, the feeling is mutual