AIBU to think that once you have paid your childcare, its not really worth working.? Is it that you just don`t want to look after your own kid. prefering to stick them in daycare as soon as the shine wears off, it really bugs me!

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Some go from 7-6 and never see there parents, I know I will get slated but in the nursery I work some kids hardly know who their parents are.

Niecie - no, it wasn't an error. I was stating a fact: I know very few people who are physically and mentally capable of working in paid employment who have not wanted, or needed, paid employment at some point in their life. I didn't say all these people work full time for 40 years did I? Just that there are very few people who at some point in their life, never want or need paid work. After all, not many people are born millionaires, or leave home and move straight into marriage with a wealthy partner. And although some people have very low aspirations and choose to live on benefits, we're not talking huge numbers of people. In fact if the threads on MN are anything to go by, most people on benefits are NOT on them by choice - they would prefer employment. What I have said does not preclude volunteers/retired people (by the definition of retirement you have worked at some point!) etc etc. I spent a gap year as a volunteer and found it tremendously rewarding.
Chelsygirl - in response to your request: I went mainly by gut instinct when choosing my nursery; I visited several times, at different times of day - I found this a really useful thing to do - even though my children were only attending afternoon sessions. I looked for a staff who obviously enjoyed working together as well as working with the children. Low staff turnover. Clean, safe, stimulating environment. Homecooked food. Large, secure garden with good range of play equipment. Good range of activities - messy play, puzzles, group activities etc. There were some touches that I particularly liked eg classical music playing softly at the end of the afternoon (isn't there evidence that Mozart stimulates brain cells?!). Also, access to other outside activities - eg travelling library visiting. I also checked out the kind of basis on which other parents used the nursery, so that my children would get to have a core group of friends who attended at the same times. Of course, there were some children who did just maybe one afternoon a week or whatever, but I wanted a core group that would give some consistency. Hope that helps! Oh - cost was about £30 a day I think, some years back.

blueshoes I am not for a moment suggesting that you or anyone should take their child out of nursery but Tittybangbang makes a good point "I feel that very tiny children learn about the world through their very physically and emotionally intense relationships with those people who they love who care for them on a day to day basis." this is being acknowledged by the government who say that all children in early years settings must have a designated key person to provide this emotional stability which is why I suggested that continuity of care /staff turn over may be something to look for when considering a nursery.

mrz, that is what I would have thought as well. I do practice attachment parenting and continue to do so even after I returned to pt work. But that does not mean that every waking moment in a baby's otherwise privileged life (I refer to the average mnetter's baby) must be like reading Deborah Jackson in soft focus in order for that baby to thrive.

Having the benefit of 2 dcs in nursery, I actually have pushed back on attachment parenting somewhat. I feel that in my dcs' experience, they overstate the case. I see firsthand how many loving carers (no not intense like titty describes but certainly affectionate and good humoured) actually enrich my dcs' life rather than take something away. And they still recognise me and dh as being in the special status of Parent.

Having lost my temper with my dcs many times, ignored my ds because I was attending to dd, or left them to play happily whilst I mn or cook, I am not ashamed to admit I am but a mere fallible mother, not a goddess of love and patience. Hence, my dcs probably benefit from time apart from me anyway.

sorry, but what the hell is "attatchment parenting"?

sounds a bit like my other favourite, "quality time"

TBB, your years with your kids when they were tiny sound a lot like me and the time I spent with my 2, I'm glad there are others out their who enjoyed the baby years so much, hard as they were!

I went back to work FT for 3 mths with dd1. As a nurse I ended up with 500 pcm after CC fees and petrol- no it wasn't worth me working. I have taken a career break and will have to do a return course as I now have dd2. I didn't feel 500quid was enough to warrent seeing my child for 1hr per day and missing all her milestones. I also needed the 500 quid so decided to become a CM. I also felt that I could do a better job than the CM who had my dd. I used to get her home exhausted and cranky due to her routine not being followed.

IME children who are attachment parented, carried around all day suffer most in CC. No CM can physically carry all her children around/ keep them next to them all the time. Children who have had this type of parenting find it very difficult when all of a sudden they have to be put down on the floor and entertain themselves for short periods while a CM prepares lunch, goes to the toilet etc.Most bathrooms would not accommodate all the children (up to five!) If parents want to return to work then attachment parenting is not the best way to go. The baby would find it much more difficult in CC with that level of dependency on you. The best thing is to get children used to you leaving the room for a couple of mins at a time and to be put down to have a kick under a playgym etc while you pop in and out and do jobs around him/her. This way babies fit much better into CC settings.

tori,

As ex childminder I could'nt agree more. I have no idea why a parent would attachment parent if they are planning to return to work - they must realise that unless they have a nanny that is very unfair to the child and carer.

"titty, don't you use a nursery despite the love-fest in your home? At what point do you deem it alright to deprive your children of your consistent loving parenting?"

Well - babies get older don't they and turn into toddlers and then into small children! Parents and the family are the starting point for tiny children learning about interacting with the world, but what's appropriate for an 8 month old isn't going to meet the social needs of a child of 4. Both my two older children did 5 afternoon nursery sessions a week from 3 yrs onwards. I think at around that age they start to benefit from interacting in larger groups and learning to be more independent in preparation for starting reception the year afterwards.

"How does Quantitative Research tell me whether or not to take my well settled ds out of ft nursery in circumstances that work very well for my family?"

That's not the point of research. Nobody can tell you that. I'm surprised you could ask a question like that.

"That is what I mean about how research does not apply in individual cases"

Sorry - I don't understand what you mean. The research is pertinent to all children. How you feel about it and what you do with that information is your concern alone.

Even if I had all the money in the world I would still put my son in nursery for a day or two, he loves it! Learns to be with other children, gets dirty, has a sign song etc etc. How many stay at home mums rolling in cash are able to/even want to offer there children as much fun?

God these conversations piss me off.

Blueshoes - I appreciate that you're trying to make a point with this bit of satire:

"that does not mean that every waking moment in a baby's otherwise privileged life must be like reading Deborah Jackson in soft focus in order for that baby to thrive"

... but actually it's a bit unkind and a distortion of something very happy and normal.

My children are part of a big, close extended family and have loving relationships with both sets of grandparents who they see every week. My mum has given me a lot of help over the years, as has my sister, who my children worship. I've also had au-pairs who've cared for them part-time, plus have had help from neighbors. Like your children mine have the security which comes from establishing close relationships with other people apart from me and DH. I agree it does enrich children's lives to have these relationships.

"Having lost my temper with my dcs many times, ignored my ds because I was attending to dd, or left them to play happily whilst I mn or cook, I am not ashamed to admit I am but a mere fallible mother, not a goddess of love and patience."

Nobody is a 'goddess of love and patience' - we're all just normal mothers who do our best. I also lose my temper and sometimes practice the style of parenting known as 'benign neglect' because life is just too damn busy with 3 children/home/voluntary work/study/dog etc to focus on children all the time. And actually I think children benefit from not being the focus of their parent's attention all the time. I do wish you'd stop trying to justify your own choices by subtly ridiculing the lifestyles and parenting style of the rest of us who've chosen to do something different.

You only have to take a look at The Motherhood Delusion thread to see how many SAHMs are pissed off with their lot.

That was adding to bluejellybean's comment btz - not a total tangent.

If I hadn't been studying all through the births of my 3 and for their first 3 years I would have been depressed. I needed distraction from housework. I hate housework. Aaaargh! So boring. Being a mum is . Being a housewife sucks. If I had a cleaner, a cook, a gardener and a handyman then motherhood would be a walk in the park. I think most SAHM get dragged down by the sheer drudgery of cooking/cleaning/doing the school run/shopping etc, which is most women's lot in life once they jack in their job. (that said - I know women who work f/t who also do most of the housework. How crap is that!)

agree titty. I have always said it's not motherhood that's difficult for me, (so far, anyway!) but the housework I have to do while looking after DS.

Any woman who sees it as her job to do all the housework is nuts. Or all the parenting. There are such things as fathers around!

Someone's got to do it. DH is out the house 14 hours a day and when he walks in at 8pm exhausted, I hesitate to hand him a mop and bucket and tell him to sort the kitchen floor out before he makes his own dinner.

I don;t see it as my JOB; but when I'm not at work I just see things that need to be done- particularly as I have been out at work for three days and next to nothing has got done.
DH works more than me and I am in the house more and therefore do more housework than him. But he is very supportive in all ways.

I think what's best for mum is best for baby, generally.

Not every woman is cut out for 24/7 motherhood - therefore both the mum and baby will probably benefit from good quality childcare.

Equally, not every mum is cut out for leaving their baby and if they have to work, then that must be soul destroying.

If a woman does need to leave her child in childcare, for whatever reason - even the 'shine wearing off' - surely she shouldn't be made to feel bad about it? Could we not all just respect each others decisions and support each other?

Is this just a case of feeling better about yourself by making others feel bad?

Whatever happened to sisterhood?

Fair enough Findtheriver - you have amended your orginal statement so what you say now makes a bit of sense. You missed out 'at some point in their lives'

Interesting that you still won't concede that being a SAHM or a student are forms of employment even if it doesn't generate a salary.

SAHM doesn't equal housewife either. Who says that we all do the housework? Who says we do all the parenting come to that? There are massive assumptions being made about what being a SAHM means here - yet again I say we all do what is best for ourselves and our families. DH does his fair share, not withstanding he works a 70 hour week and he does his fair share of parenting too.

Maybe you all live in the land of the yummy mummy but I don't know a single SAHM who doesn't either do voluntary work, study, help out their husbands with their businesses or do a bit of work at home for themselves when the opportunity presents itself. They do things for themselves but they also want to be there for their children. Why do WOHM resent this so much and try to make out that we are somehow missing out?

Titty - much of what you say makes absolute sense to me. Why do people try and argue that just because their child doesn't fit the research it is somehow invalidated. The results of research come from examining a range of responses - it is about statistical probabilities, the spread of data.

My understanding of the research is that it is a question of everything in moderation. Again, extremes are bad. Leaving a child in F/T mediocre nursery care from an early age is not good but then neither is keeping a child at home without any contact outside the family.

As a mother I don't resent any other mother, we all do what we can when we can.

My grandmother worked for Aquascutum, she was the only seamstress who could do the pockets.

My mother worked full time from when I was very little, now she has her evening meal with us three times a week, and we go to the gym and hit the shops together every week.

I don't recall ever not being close to my own mother, we have always had a special bond.

My dd2 attended a nursery that was owned and run by a mother of a girl who went to ballet with my dd1. The staff turnover was really low and they were all the sweetest, most adorable people anybody could hope to look after their child. The baby room was so over staffed there were more staff than babies. And they did go out every day in these beautiful six child wagon things, to the parks and he shops.

She will go back there with her little brother when I finish my maternity leave.

But there's no EVIDENCE for any of this 'children are happier when they are at home full time with mummy'. As I posted about 400 pages ago, this SAHM thing is a social construct of the last 50 years. Are the children of SAHMs growing up to be happier/more successful/whatever measure of mental well-being you choose than children have been in the past?

Is Swedish society (where children attend ft nursery from a young age) full of sociopaths (another post that was ignored)?

Until you can show some demonstrable evidence (and yes tbb - quantitative rather than qualitative. Your kids might be in clover but but that is statistically no more relevant than the fact that my DS (and I) are both happy with him being in childcare.

I do get the feeling that early childcare in Sweden is somewhat different to what is offered in this country though.

Early Years - How Do They Do It In Sweden?

Haven't got time to watch that right now but thanks for the link, will have a look later. Doesn't detract from the foundation of the argument though - there are a lot of people arguing that babies are better off at home with their mothers regardless of the kind of care that they might receive from anyone else

Goodness me, are we still going?

DD moved up a class in Nursery yesterday, she rose to the occasion in wonderful style, got stuck in and had a ball. She was so pleased with herself when I went to collect her at 4.30pm. She was so proud too showing me her new sleeping place and toys and the garden. She is only 16 months but you could tell that she was so chuffed. We are at home today packing to go on holiday, its all in the balance I feel.

For me? If she is happy then I am happy

Am just passing. I was considering posting an AIBU about "wishing that a keyworker hadn?t chosen to read a book called ?My Mum Works? (that starts ?My mum works? but she still loves me!?) to the room while I said goodbye to my sons this morning". Not in anger or resentment, but more in the spirit of wry, bittersweet sharing. Strangely, I?ve changed my mind?

So instead, here are two c&ps from TTB:
?Even if we could we'd none of us be able to untangle all the subtle strands of experience that shape the way we develop as human beings.?

So why quote endless ?research? that ?proves? the long-term affect of childcare on those who experience it? How on earth do researchers prove parity in all other areas? Maybe it was sleep training that fucked 'em up (I gather from other Let?s All Judge Those Who Don?t Think That ?Parent? Is A Verb threads that being left to cry is also conducive to social depravity in later life)?

?DH is out the house 14 hours a day and when he walks in at 8pm exhausted??

Whilst we?re talking about ?learning?, and ?role models?, it occurs to me to ask - what gender are your children, TTB?