AIBU to think that once you have paid your childcare, its not really worth working.? Is it that you just don`t want to look after your own kid. prefering to stick them in daycare as soon as the shine wears off, it really bugs me!

[discusturd]

Some go from 7-6 and never see there parents, I know I will get slated but in the nursery I work some kids hardly know who their parents are.

blue, thats a very good point

Crikey OP, we can safely say you are not of the same school of thought as Granny Murray then.........

duck...........duck.............duck......... OW!!!!!!!!!!!!

monkeytrousers, I am in AWE of your posts. What monkeytrousers said.

My mum is a very young really, she is 50 next year

She stayed off work with me and my brother. I mean that things were different in that 30 years ago (she says) that there wasnt maternity leave, you basically left work.

She went back to work at 40 and now has her "career". I find it odd that she seems to almost resent that I can take my year off and pick up where I left off and do it part time if I so wish!

"no on should be throwing their weight around telling parents that they are fools who don?t know what they are doing"

I've had plenty of people who have done this to me over the years. I've been called all kinds of things to my face and behind my back when I didn't conform or be keen to get the children off my hands. Most people seemed eager for me 'to get back to work and back to normal' and when I had doubts that it wouldn't be the best thing for the child insisted I was wrong and should return to work 'Just think of all the things you could buy for them'.

"And we don't know because we're not told and because it's impossible for us to draw the connections ourselves.?

This is very true, ime. In rl, I don't think that anyone that I have spoken to knows about the research in this area and anyone that I've spoken to when I've brought it up have poo-pooed the idea and dismissed it as ridiculous without engaging in any conversation about it. Seemingly, head in the sand approach.

I think that tbb has been excellent at putting forward an unpopular viewpoint of childcare.

Excellent post MonkeyTrousers. You have explained very clearly what I was trying to say to Titty. I really hope she responds, because I genuinely want to know why she believes that her standpoint has validity yet those of other parents don't. I just feel that the bottom line is that her view is incredibly patronising (though I accept that she doesnt intend that) ie: 'I made the decision to remove my dd from her nursery because I felt it wasnt the right environment for her, yet I don't believe that other parents are capable of making the best decisions for their own children.'
You are also absolutely correct Monkey, that circumstances and need will play an important part in any decisions we make, as well as parental intuition (ie gut feeling) as well as a range of other factors.
It is facile to try to reduce the argument to 'some research indicates increased levels of one particular hormone in children in some circumstances' so therefore 'nurseries must be bad for children of a certain age'.
As I said in a post way back, my 3 children attended an after school club for a couple of years. Two of my children loved it; one didn't. What is the 'right' thing to do in these circumstances? There are countless situations where it is impossible to provide the absolutely optimum situation for every individual within a family group all the time. If I sent my ds to another form of childcare, he would no doubt have missed his sisters. If I had insisted that all 3 went somewhere else, then the two girls would have enjoyed it less. If I had given up my job, I would be throwing away an interesting career to be bored and frustrated. So we compromised. And guess what? My ds is not harmed by the experience! He is as well adjusted as his sisters! In fact I would say he's probably be less well adjusted if he had a mother who bent over backwards to try to give him everything he wanted at any particular moment in time. Life is all about making the best decisions you can WITHIN THE CIRCUMSTANCES. I don't know ANY parent who doesnt do this. We all care about our children, we all love them, we all do what we believe is the best in raising them to become responsible and well adjusted adults.

Pamelat your mum is not much older than me and my sister.

Not sure about 30y ago but there was definitely maternity leave 21y ago albeit 6months. I know because I took it. It would only not apply if you hadn't worked somewhere long enough to qualify for it(something like 6-12m, I can't remember exactly).

juule, I have no doubt that the average mother-in-the-street would not know about John Bowlby, Sue Gerhardt, Deborah Jackson et al. And their pooh-pooing probably signified a lack of intellectual curiosity in this area to begin with. I cannot really think of anyone in RL who would want to discuss parenting issues in the depth I do on mn. You are brave to start a discussion in this area.

But I do think the average well-informed mnetter would know about those theories. I wouldn't jump to a head-in-the-sand conclusion even for those posters. It is perfectly valid for a parent to know about the research and others out there about the adverse and even beneficial/protective effect of nursery on young children. And come to the valid conclusion after observing their children in childcare (as opposed to keeping them out of childcare because of research and then putting the frighteners on parents that do use it) that hey, their children will be fine in the overall scheme of things.

Experts are experts within the narrow and artificial parameters of their research. Parents are holistic experts of their children and that is all that matters.

'Experts are experts within the narrow and artificial parameters of their research. Parents are holistic experts of their children and that is all that matters.'

• how very, very true.

Seems common sense to me that a mother/ father would want to spend her child's formative years being the constant care giver.
I think the problem is that we as a society undervalue the family unit in general and many parents simply can't afford to saty at home.

Blueshoes - I was responding to this

"..this is simply NOT true. There reports on nursery/childcare/carer provision are in the public realm and have been widely reported. Sue Gerhard?s book, and MANY others are available to buy on Amazon and borrow in the library. This information has been in the public realm for years."

from monkeytrousers which seemed to suggest, to me, that most parents were aware of the various reports, Sue Gerhard's book etc. I was saying that wasn't my experience of people I've met.

It may well be that the lady who works as a Receptionist, gets her childcare paid for by childtax credits. In that case, it probably would make financial sense for her to work, even if her salary is relatively low.

findtheriver - I also agree with that statement but it does no harm to consider information from various sides before you make a decision for your own child.

juuule, fair enough.

But those reports HAVE been in the public realm and there is no conspiracy to suppress them. The fact that the people you come in contact with don't know about them is hardly surprising given the average amount of reading the general populace gets up to. The same people would probably be equally unimpressed if you raised the issue of maternal depression of an unhappy SAHM on the emotional outcomes of their offspring.

I would not draw anything more sinister than that from their lack of interest.

You can pick leaflets up at any library singing the praises and benefits of putting your child into childcare from as early as 6w. I have yet to see any leaflets on any possible detrimental effects of childcare.

Possibly due to gov't (who seem to actively promote childcare places) and nurseries having the funding to produce those leaflets?

I agree blueshoes. What I take issue with is Titty's suggestion that there is really solid evidence out there about a definite link between children attending nursery at x age for x amount of time, and deepseated psychological issues, and that there's a big cover up going on to keep this knowledge out of the public domain. It's just nonsense! The whole issue is far more complex than that. I would also add that Mr/Mrs Average is not very likely to do in depth academic research, but what they WILL do is access the rehashed versions in the media which is perhaps why they, quite rightly, take it all with a very large dose of salt and trust their parental instinct instead. You only need to look at past issues where various bits of research are distorted and the mass hysteria which can follow to see this. eg there was the huge issue of MMR innoculations which scared many parents shitless so that we are now in a situation where there are dangerously low numbers of children immunised in certain areas, with the result that children are at GREATER risk from contracting measles than they would be from being immunised! A fine example of how a limited piece of 'research' followed by misrepresentation in the media can cause needless worry and grief.

juuule - my local library has leaflets on everything you can think of from the local running club to embroidery. Do you really expect to have a qualifying leaflet for each one, eg: if you go running it is possible that you could end up with a stress fracture? If you go to evening classes in spanish you could end up meeting some gorgeous guy and your marriage will end in meltdown?!!
The leaflets about childcare provisions are there to raise awareness about what is on offer. Parents can then go along and visit and make their own judgement. I have yet to come across any parent who places their child in a nursery/with a CM or in a school, come to that, without investigating, visiting, talking to other people. I really don't get this assumption that people are somehow not capable of assessing their own circumstances and making an informed decision!

I don't think the mmr debate has been resolved yet, has it? Not sure that's a good parallel to draw.

juuule, that is news to me - from 6 weeks? Then again, I don't go to the local library. I have to say that I never received any information in the myriad leaflets I got when my 2 dcs were born about (the benefits of) going back to work.

I have always found the 'breast is best' leaflets to also be laughably simplistic even as someone who is a supporter of bf-ing.

That is government propanganda for you. The leaflets are pitched at too low a level for a sophisticated audience - imagine putting 'debate' in for the sake of balance. And probably pitched too strongly for the sake of an unsophisticated audience. Either way, I'd be surprised anyone reads them and if they do, actually remember them. I am more inclined to think that the poo-poo-ing comes from lack of interest generally, rather than reading those leaflets?

Perhaps it's just me then and the people I know.
With my first child, I was totally unaware that there might be any reason to not send my child to nursery or any other form of childcare. The overwhelming view was that it was normal to do so and that I was not normal to feel uncomfortable with it. I was totally unaware of any other viewpoint.

'I don't think the mmr debate has been resolved yet, has it?'

Exactly my point juuule! Just like the nursery/non nursery debate!

As someone said earlier (can't remember when - it's a long thread!!) research is an organic, ongoing thing. It is pointless to take a piece of research, at a particular point in time, and promote it as 'valid'. It is scaremongering, and potentially very dangerous.

Reading again, I meant I never saw leaflets about childcare. I would agree with findingariver that if they are out there, it is just to raise awareness about their availability. Knowing the surestart agenda, it is targetted at parents whose children from potentially disruptive environments who are more likely than not to actually benefit from the routine and safety of a nursery environment.

"It is pointless to take a piece of research, at a particular point in time, and promote it as 'valid'."

And that's partly my point. You cannot say that childcare is harmless to babies as the research doesn't show conclusively that it isn't and some shows that it possibly is.

Blueshoes - childcare leaflets on every corner where I live. It is a surestart area though so maybe you have a point.

But juuules - you could say exactly the same thing for probably most aspects of life!! There isn't any conclusive evidence either way that it is harmful or not!
Do we stop making any proactive decision simply on the basis that it 'might' be harmful???!!!!