AIBU to think that once you have paid your childcare, its not really worth working.? Is it that you just don`t want to look after your own kid. prefering to stick them in daycare as soon as the shine wears off, it really bugs me!

[discusturd]

Some go from 7-6 and never see there parents, I know I will get slated but in the nursery I work some kids hardly know who their parents are.

"ttb who was watching your child?"

Sorry - what do you mean?

Titty - that's sad that you were persuaded to use a child care provision that you weren't happy with, against your better judgement. But not all parents do that. I wouldnt even bother with looking at glossy marketing brochures - I think spending time in a nursery is the best way to get a feel for what happens, how the children feel and so on.

"did they both turn up at your door and force you to send dc to nursery"

I used the word 'persuaded' because that's what I meant.

"you obviously though in your own opinion it was the right thing to do."

Yes - I was persuaded that she would be cared for in a way that would meet her emotional needs.

"then your opinion changed and you took dc out of said nursery"

Yes - when I realised that it wasn't appropriate for her.

was WaynettaSlob one of your alumni working in dc nursery?since you have warned us of the calibre and nature of NN you have taught and passed and they proceded to work

"that's sad that you were persuaded to use a child care provision that you weren't happy with, against your better judgement"

I didn't want to leave her at all but I had to because I needed to work. Yes I felt anxious about leaving her there and had misgivings about it - despite the fact that it was (as far as I knew) a very well managed nursery with an excellent reputation. I thought my misgivings were normal. Aren't most parents anxious when they first leave their baby in the care of people they don't know well?

TBB - it isn't like you continued to send your child to somewhere where they were not settled.

You saw the problem, you rectified it.

Sometimes we dont get the parenting stuff right first time - but 99.9% of parents realise when things are not right and sort it out, which is what makes a good parent imo

Scottishmmmy - why are you being so vindictive and aggressive?

Or have I offended you on some other thread or something?

well put elf.

titty, you just gotta take it on the chin. no point blaming a brochure.

you resolved the issue and found a better outcome for your child.

Titty,

If you read through the thread you will see scottishmummy has been like this all the way through. I have made a mistake with a nursey too-you live and learn.

"titty, you just gotta take it on the chin. no point blaming a brochure"

Sigh.

I'm not 'blaming' a brochure. I am saying that the way the nursery sold itself to parents influenced my feelings about it. Along with other things (obviously I didn't make up my mind without spending time at the nursery and talking to the staff).

yes honey i am really struggling to see how ttb can pass students whom she calls thick, badly parented etc but still took a paycheque for it and did nothing

BUT rocks up on MN to warn other parents about te waynetta slob potentally lurking in your nursery.bothered enough now

not bothered enough to act at the time but happy to regale us on MN with tales of immature NN students

So Titty, if you tried a nursery, decided that it wasn't right for your child, so did the right thing in changing the situation, why are you so convinced that other parents aren't equally able to make that judgement for their own situations? And why aren't you able to accept that if other parents put their child in a nursery and leave them there, then maybe, just maybe, it's because the arrangement is working well for the child? What I'm finding difficult to understand is the assumption that other parents aren't capable of making their own judgements.

And discusturd will still be watching from the wings.

Why, oh why, are we letting a 'comment' from the OP wind us all up?? That's what I don't get.

Tittybangbang,
If you are a childcare tutor then I hope you have actively worked in childcare settings. Surely you must have least had experience of working in a nursery yourself if you are going to be training Waynetta Slob to work in one. Have you never done Waynetta Slob's job?

Surely if you have actually worked in a nursery then you would have an idea what to look for and would be able to see through the marketing.

My son was actually in three different nursery/ pre schools. The first nursery I took him out of very quickly becuase they refused to promote him to the toddler room.

My son had orthopedic problems which made him walking and the nursery refused to put him in the 2 year old room inspite of a community paediatrian saying he needed to be with two year olds as he had a mental age of two. Our community paediatian pointed out to them that they were discriminating on disablity and would report them to social services if they did not put my son in the right room. Inspite of this I chose to move him.

My son then went briefly to a pre school which he found way too formal. They tried to teach him how to write at two years old and couldn't cope when he threw a tantruam.

Finally my son went to a fanastic nursery which he did well and he loved.

I think that there needs to be better on going training and inspections of nurseries to ensure developmentally appriopate care.

"yes honey i am really struggling to see how ttb can pass students whom she calls thick, badly parented etc but still took a paycheque for it and did nothing"

Have you ever taught on an NNEB or CACHE course Scottishmummy?

Or in a normal UK secondary school?

I suggest you go and spend a week or so in a really rough comprehensive. Like one of the ones that most of our 16 - 18 intake came from.

The entry requirements when I was teaching on these courses were 5 gcce's at grade C or above. In other words the entry requirements were pretty low.

As for whether I should have failed the students I thought were immature or emotionally needy - students could be bloody thick, rude and immature and STILL complete the assignments to the required standards.

They could be bloody thick, rude and immature and STILL pass their observations as these are not a test of personality but of the way a student interacts with the children they were caring for at THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT.

As for 'not being bothered' at the time - well how do you know this? Of course I was bothered. We all were. We used to spend half our lives talking about it in the staff room. But the point was that none of us had the power to do anything about it - particularly me. I was a junior member of staff. I didn't have the power to chuck people off courses if they were turning up for classes regularly and completing assigments. Why are you being so nasty about this? What do you think I ought to have done?

You get inadequate people in all sorts of professions. They slip through the net. Nursing, teaching, medicine, you name it. Some people are great at their jobs and other people are not.

And before you go into another ignorant rant - I have pointed out on several occasions on this thread that the range of ability on the courses I taught on was very wide - that there were wonderful students as well as very weak ones.

"why are you so convinced that other parents aren't equally able to make that judgement for their own situations"

I'm sure parents are very capable of deciding what works best for them in terms of organising their family life and getting personal fulfilment through work and study.

I'm not really interested in all that. What I'm interested in is the possible emotional repercussions of this type of care on CHILDREN, much further down the line - long after both the parents and children have moved on and forgotten about their time in nursery care. The research that I have read on this subject that has caught other people's attention too over the past few years focuses on the subtle but long lasting impact of early experiences of care on a child's psyche. As parents it's impossible to make this connection in relation to how our own children respond to nursery care at the time that they're experiencing it. Babies can't tell us how they feel and none of us can see into the future. Even if we could we'd none of us be able to untangle all the subtle strands of experience that shape the way we develop as human beings.

I have no doubt that my dd would have 'settled' had I left her at the nursery. By the time I took her out she had stopped crying in the mornings when I dropped her off. She's a confident, sociable child and she wouldn't have carried on being so miserable. But I still think she would have been more stressed on a daily basis than she needed to be, because I think that nurseries are an inherently more socially stressful environment for tiny children than the home environment when they're being cared for by someone who loves them. And that's what worries me. The research I have read flags up concerns about children in nurseries having consistently higher levels of cortisol in their bodies (cortisol is a stress hormone) even when they appear to be happy and settled. It asks questions about the impact of these raised levels of cortisol on the developing brains of babies and very young children.

I do intend to keep reading on this issue, but I have yet to come across anything that has convinced me that (all things being equal) full-time nursery is the best model of care for babies - no matter economically, emotionally or socially necessary it is for their parents.

Pokes head round the doorwinces leaves

But the bottom line, Titty, is still that you are saying you managed to do the right thing, by realising that the nursery environment your dc was in was not right for her, but that other parents are somehow not going to get it right. That's the underlying premise of your argument. Why can you not accept that just as you observed your child, observed the nursery and how she was responding to it, and made a judgement call, other parents are perfectly able to do the same thing?? I sent my eldest dd to a playgroup with which I wasnt particularly happy, so I moved her. She also spend some time with a CM who was great, and my younger two went to a fabulous day nursery. Why is my judgement about what is right for my children less valid than your judgement???

"If you are a childcare tutor then I hope you have actively worked in childcare settings."

In my time in FE these are some of the courses I taught on:

NNEB, CACHE, Access to Nursing and Midwifery, MotorCycle Maintenance, Electronic Engineering, GNVQ Health and Social Care, GNVQ Business, GNVQ IT, A level English Language and Literature, GCSE English, Basic Skills.

I was an English teacher (originally worked in secondary schools) and taught the communication skills modules on these courses. I was also involved in coursework marking on the CACHE courses, alongside the childcare tutors.

I'm sure there are many well run nurseries with good people working in them. DS 1 goes to one now and has been going 5 afternoons a week since he was 2. I just don't think this type of care would have been appropriate for any of my children when they were babies, no matter how well qualified and caring the staff or how well managed the nursery.

I withdrew my dd from nursery long before I knew all this stuff. And as I said - I think she would have 'settled' in her nursery if I hadn't taken her out. Parents are making judgements on what is right for their children without perhaps being fully aware of all the possible subtle repercussions further down the line. And we don't know because we're not told and because it's impossible for us to draw the connections ourselves. You have to seek this information out, though increasingly it is coming in to the public domain. That said, when it does come into the public domain there's a huge amount of resistence to it - anything that interferes in parents ability to be economically active is greeted with a howl of protest (I don't mean that in a way that's judgemental of individual parents - I know that many of us really have to work, whatever we feel about childcare).

But you withdrew your daughter from her nursery because you judged that it was not the environment for her, regardless of what books you'd read/research you'd done!
So, why do you assume that other parents aren't able to make their own judgements? Judgements can be based on all sorts of things - intuition, research, statistics... probably most parents take a range of factors into account.
I still don't understand Titty, why you seem to think that other parents are floundering around in the dark, unable to make the best decisions for their own kids, when you were perfectly able to decide what to do with yours.

"In my time in FE these are some of the courses I taught on:

NNEB, CACHE, Access to Nursing and Midwifery, MotorCycle Maintenance, Electronic Engineering, GNVQ Health and Social Care, GNVQ Business, GNVQ IT, A level English Language and Literature, GCSE English, Basic Skills.

I was an English teacher (originally worked in secondary schools) and taught the communication "

So you have taught a wide range of courses, but have you actually worked in these careers. Otherwise how in the hell can you make an assessment of someone doing the job? Or even a person's suitablity?

I find it a seriously screwed up system that childcare courses are taught by someone who has never looked after children in a professional capacity. Frankly its frighting.

There is a difference between textbooks and practical experience in most jobs.

I am an NNEB

The course I did wasn't hard at all, we all passed in my year

Some students were good with kids, others could take them or leave them (like most people in their place of work, some good some bad)

Its such a personal thing, using childcare or not

From my own experience I wouldn't leave a young child all day in a nursery, but if parents are happy to that is their choice, we're all different

There was a thread here a while ago about the fact most childcare workers don't put their kids into childcare, whether its because of bad experiences or just wanting to be at home with them I don't know

And, no, none of my tutors had actually worked in a nursery or day nursery when I was studying

I love you Tittybangbang!

chelsygirl, another reason childcare workers might not use childcare, especially ft nursery care, could be the prohibitive cost, which is a sad indictment of how lowly paid nursery workers are. Some of them are worth more than their weight in gold.

Titty, if your daughter had settled in her nursery and was showing no obvious adverse effects, would you have still taken your daughter out anyway, knowing what you know now about the research on cortisol and all, which has been knocking around for ages?

My experience is the opposite of yours - I was surprised that my children settled at nursery so easily, having put them in somewhat relunctantly to keep a well-paying job but half-minded to quit if childcare did not work out. The rest they say is history.

Oh, my ds is 2, he had been at ft nursery for a year now and seems to love it (but what do I know). He still bfs and we co-sleep at night pressed up against each other. Somehow, I am not worried about his mental health or cortisol levels.

?Parents are making judgements on what is right for their children without perhaps being fully aware of all the possible subtle repercussions further down the line.?

No, parents make judgements made on their own need and circumstances ? just as it should be PLUS?

?And we don't know because we're not told and because it's impossible for us to draw the connections ourselves.?

..this is simply NOT true. There reports on nursery/childcare/carer provision are in the public realm and have been widely reported. Sue Gerhard?s book, and MANY others are available to buy on Amazon and borrow in the library. This information has been in the public realm for years. There is no conspiracy theory here.

The resistance to it is a VALID resistance ? you need to at least attempt to be less biased and actually listen o what parents as well as ?experts? are saying. They are experts in psychology, not necessarily parenting. People have been parenting under much greater stresses than these and still our species thrives. Most of us will know sadness and maybe even depression in our lives ? you cannot irradiate that ? it?s perfectly natural. Psychological pathologies are a different kettle of fish and the sciences are looking into possible adaptive explanations for them. Until we hit upon a CONSENSUS, no on should be throwing their weight around telling parents that they are fools who don?t know what they are doing. Abuse is abuse and will always be such, but putting your child into nursery to provide a multitude of other BENEFITS is not abuse. Get a grip. You are passionate about this, but it?s the passion of the zealot, who only has half the story but still believes in the WORD regardless cos it spoke to them personally.