To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

Kew, I don't really bitch about people's choices..... I do feel freedom in being able to share a 'I don't know how they do it?' conversation with a fellow SAHM. Likewise I am sure you have days in your office and say how dull it must be to be a SAHM or how you are so glad to be working. I do find it difficult to understand how people put their children in nursery full time, or in breakfast and after school clubs every day, missing out on friends for tea, sports day etc, but it's not my decision and woiuldn't assume that my opinion was valid to those tat had or chose to do it.

OK, I'll start

• I've been at home with DS since sunday as he's got chicken pox, and have left the house twice since then. Am going mental.
• DP was meant to bring me home a takeaway last night and didn't get back till 11pm, by which time the takeaway was cold and I was asleep on the sofa
• I can't seem to get a job, despite endless applications
• We can't afford for me to stay at home, or we could, but we'd have to live on bread and cheese
• My stomach resembles a sack of spuds with most of the spuds removed, and doesn't seem to want to revert to its 17yo state no matter how much chocolate I eat

Who's next?

12 legs I can;t say I have ever discussed childcare/being wohm or SAHm mum with colleagues. Not once, I'm really not interested. What made me sad was your much earlier commetn that youbothced to freinds about tit. I have SAHM friends - made me wonder if they think the saem. That I am letting DS down.

I was walking through the park yesterday with my DS (19mths). He was chasing the birds pushing along his toy car and I was having to scuttle after him as he ran from one bird to the next, learning that they fly away!! And I thought, WOW, just think I could be sat in a boring office, working for a big company who don't give a sxxt about me, and yet here I am watching my son chase birds!!! How lucky am I.

And other days I cannot wait for my DH to get home, and love Saturday mornings when there are the two of us to look after them, and sometimes look forward to going back to work so I can have a cup of coffee and put it down on a low table (my DD is 9wks and I am on maternity leave).

It is such a complicated and personal decision and probably not best to pass judgement on other people trying to make it....

My go

I left work because I wasn't sure about dd going to nursery. Boss said he'd give me freelance to do in 'free' time. Hasn't. Might have to grovel for my old job back, which I don't actually want. Or find a new job, but nobody else wants me. And STILL not sure about nursery.

OR could live on bread and cheese without a job, but I'm secretly a bit bored, crap at housework and not the SAHM I'd like to be.

There are good bits, but it goes against the ethos of a moan to mention here.

To FallenMadonna and Msdemeanor from ages ago re my post:"It often seems / feels unnaccceptable for women to be able to say 'I'm going back to work, want to keep my career going, have sorted excellent child-care for baby, and am prepared to run mysel ragged with a schedule that also ensures lots of quality time with child, byeee', and unfortunately your proffered opinion about 'her baby needs her, she is prioritising lifestyl ove poor neglected child' line will have exacerbated this - hence 'keep back' warning signs." No, she didn't proffer that line - but I think women often say 'I have to go back to work because we can't afford for me not to and i'm so sad" because they don't feel they can say the line I suggested they might be feeling. Because guilt, pressure and social expectation makes it more acceptable to say you are working because you can't feed yourslf without the money rather than because you want to keep your career going alongside motherhood.

Ideally, mothers who want to woh alongside parenting can do so without censorious chit-chat from men and Twelvelegs' friends, and mothers who want to give up woh can also do so. Most sahms I know want to be away from the workplace as much as they believe that sahm-dom is the best..making sacrifices....best for their children etc. Most are doing it because it's what THEY want t do..and are able to accomodate it. And good for them - as a wohm I have absolutely no criticism or mealymouthed bitchery to say about that.

Um, that's exactly what I said Blu. I strongly believe we tend to end up doing what makes US least miserable at any particular time (no option is all roses) be that sahm, wohm, wahm, wptohm.... and while we may say we do it for our kids, mostly we do it because it works for us and the lifestyle we want.
I felt the remark that was wrong was the one about being lucky to 'hang around the house all day' which is dismissive and rude. I'm sure the OP and everyone else would prefer to hear 'I really enjoy my work' or 'I work because otherwise the kids drive me barmy' or 'I want to earn money'.
I work by the way, my friends are a complete mix of sahms, f/t working mums and every single version of working from home, working part time and owning own business etc. My kids frequently drive me insane. I'm hiding from them now!

Ahh - finally someone (well 2 people!) said what I have been thinking for a while about the whole SAHM thing.

I haven't dared start a thread on it but had been thinking along the lines of

"Are you a sahm because you want to (ie they're only babies once, precious time etc) or because you honestly think it's the best thing for your children?

I believe that most women at home are not "sacrificing" a career that they are longing to go back to, they do actually want to be there (as opposed to 1950s).

But think that some feel they need to justify this with "scientific proof" about how much better it is for the children.

People make remarks in casual conversation about the staying home/going back to work thing, but in reality it is very often a complex decision based on many circumstances including financial, and in casual conversation you don't get the whole picture.

We made serious lifestyle changes/sacrifices so that I could be a SAHM for as long as possible. (Including moving countries).

I could never have imagined leaving my baby whilst i went to work.
My mum didnt work till myself and brother were nearly at high school, and I honestly could not have contemplated doing it any other way.

None of my friends are SAHM, most work full time, most of them because they have too, due to the size of their mortgage, lifestyle choices etc

They have made their choices, i have made mine, it is not my concern how others live or raise their kids, I am happy with my choices and assume others are happy with theirs.

If people are not happy then it is up to them to change their circumstances.

Sorry but unless you know how much both partners earn that is a ludicrous statement to make. For example... I have a reasonable house (only a three bed detached) but one that an outsider could tell me I could downsize from. But what the outsider would not know is that my part time wage is currently greater than my husband's full time wage. In fact, if I gave up work after paying the mortgage we'd have £40 a month to pay all bills, buy all food for everything. Therefore, we could never let me give up work, even by downsizing because at the moment my hubby would never earn enough, even if we managed to reduce our mortgage by £200 a month. Furthermore, you are assuming that they have got a decent amount of equity in the house that they could use etc etc... this might not be the case. I know of a few people at the mo in negative equity who cannot afford to move as much as they'd love to.

You never know the full details of other people's lives, therefore it is impossible to judge (although in fairness to you, her comments also sound inappropriate because she could never know the extent of your personal life either!)

I stay home because it's best for my children and that is a motive that is convenient for my lifestyle, ie we live comfortably, children go to a very good school, lovely holidays and I drive a safe car.

Perhaps it was more acceptable for her to say she had to go back to work than the alternative explanations

Alternative explanations like:

(i) I want to work because I enjoy working
(ii) I am afraid of my brain dying within two weeks of giving up work, and having to wander around in complacent Stepford Wife fashion for the rest of my natcheral.
(iii) My husband doesn't earn enough to support us all
(iv) I don't see why my husband should earn all the money for us

My choice to work is a mixture of all of the above.

I think Parenthood is hard be it SAH/WOH
I am very lucky that since the children were born I have mostly been a SAHM, when I have worked I have worked part time only.
I have found both great and both hard.

Working even part time and fitting in Doctors/Dentist/school meetings is hard, and the house work, shopping school runs still need to be done.
As the stay at home parent I got to see the first steps, hear the first words before DH and that made me feel so sad for him.

I feel it is very very unfair and unkind to knock someone for SAH/WOH.

As for the OP, when I have not been working money has been tight we have gone wihout holidays, nights out, take aways and sometimes the basics but thats the choice we made,I have never moaned about having matalan clothes or a 10 year old car I got to spend presious time with my children watching them grow and no big house posh holiday or flash car is worth missing out on that

I know that I couldn't stay at home with my lo. I was lonely and couldn't motivate myself to do anything with dd when on maternity leave. Our cm is brilliant, nature walks, painting, park, swimming, cooking... I know that both dd and me would be miserable at home. Luckily , we can't afford for me to stay at home, I earn a lot more than dh, and we've spoken about the possibility of him staying at home in the future once we've paid off debts.
However, only dh knows how I feel and we both agree I'd be a miserable old bint if I was to stop at home. So rather than confide something very personal, I say I'd love to stay at home (lie) but can't (true).
I'd hate for dd to think that I "chose" to go to work, which I have to do, and feel that I "chose" work over her. I love her and I get to talk about her day and bath her and cuddle and do bedtime. But staying at home is not for me, fair play to Mums who can and do. I love my job, I'm happy ergo we're all happy

Makes me laugh that people jump on the smallest of things, eveyone who makes the same choice takes comfort in talking about other people's choices. Look at Quattro, a prime example of how WOHP feel about SAHP, I'm sure she is honest enough to say in order to feel more validated she has said these things in RL.
Just like people who send their children to private/state schools feel validated by talking to people in the same boat enjoying the choice they made.
Perhaps I'm just a little more honest than most.

Trouble is, it's in the nature of being a mother to doubt yourself - has he had enough to eat? Was I too strict about his bath? Should I have played with him more today?

So when anyone comes out and says that their choice is definitely the right one, it plays on all the feelings of guilt and doubt we have about how we are raising our children and we feel judged for not making the 'right' choice. And I think anyone who can say they definitely know they're doing the right thing is just fooling themselves. You can't know, that's the scary thing about children. And whether they turn out ok or career criminals, you have no way of knowing whether something you did was to blame.

We all do the best we can for a huge range of reasons. I had a job I loved and that made me happy and fulfilled, so I saw no reason why I should not do that P/T while DS had a really fun and happy time at nursery. If he'd hated nursery, or I'd hated my job, maybe our choices would have been different.

12legs - I really don't discuss it in reallife. I don;t discuss the reasons why I work, whether I am happy or sad or indifferent about it. I don't care if anyone else chooses to work or has to or doesn't. I can actually prove this as several RL friends are MN'ers and can vouch for that statement.

My RL friedns area mixture of WOHP, SAHM, WAHM and part-time WOHM - are judge them by how what their DC's are like and I would be hard puched to work out from thier DC's which of the mothers works and which stay at home (though apparently it is better for chidlrne from mothers to stay at home it haven't seen any noticeable differnce in the DC's yet).

Still think its sad that you know WOHM's that have no idea that you are bitching about htem. As I said I really hope that my illusions of my friends not really caring about what I do but who I am is true and I'm not deluding myself.

Twelvelegs -- do you have any WOHM friends? do you also bitch about them behind their backs or do you only bitch about the ones you are not friends with?

i hope i don't know you in RL. You won't like me at all -- i work FT and we have a 4x4 , which i'm sure given your comment "i drive a safe car" would be a complete no-no.

Actually page64, I would assume that someone who stated "I drive a safe car" probably has a four by four. Although I have no idea what 12legs actually meant by that (unless she meant she didn't drive an old banger).

One of the things I like about working is that this stay at home vs go to work debate is non existent. In fact I have only come across it in real life a very few times, when I have resolved not to hang out with people who feel able to pass judgements on others or make what are generally unthinking statements. At work the only people who get bitched about are those who are incompetent or unlikable (and as a manager I frown on bitching/gossiping anyway, it is a deeply unpleasant and unproductive activity).

Twelvelegs

Er no, I said those things to provoke you actually. Just to make you think about the way you're trying to validate your lifestyle choices on here. I don't know many sahms in RL, how would I? Know lots of husbands who complain about their wives staying at home though ...