To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

I found this comment by HaventSleptForAYear "I don't see why a child needs to be looked after by their blood parent, they are not necessarily (and sometimes not at all) better qualified or even best suited to it." quite interesting, in that i fail to see how being officially qualified to look after a child necessarily makes you better at it.

Doesn't make you love that child even when they are being a complete PITA and throwing a wobbler over dinner (obviously whilst simultaneously destroying the carpet/wallpaper).

Do you get a qualification in waking up at 3am to change a child's bedsheets/jammies cause they've vomited and pooed diarrhoea all over them (and not wake up their older sibling that is in the top bunk)?

And btw people - if other people's choices didn't matter to us...why are we posting then?

No no no Xenia, I think there is more of a moral duty on MEN if anyone to demand the right to part time working. Why should women be responsible for ensuring everyone can be a slave to the corporation? Perpetuating an untenable situation only makes it worse. Change the system, don't erode women's right to choose.

Up the revolution.

If we're back to revolutionary slogans, I'm coming back.

Up the workers.

And those who don't, of course.

Down with....erm....Fruit Shoots.

get them dungarees out

far too late for me to read all 19 pages of this post so apologies if repeating but if you were having a conversation with your friend and her sister wasn't there and you were just commenting that she didn't have to go back to work because there were other alternatives that said sister could look at then YANBU.
If the sister was there or you were advising that the sister SHOULD do those things, then YABU.
If the former, then FGS, it comes to something when you can't even make a comment in a conversation with a "friend" without causing the evil eye to be cast at you - your friend shouldn't have bothered mentioning it to you if her sister is so sacred.

People make their own choices but in professions where only 10% of women stay on into their 30s/40s in a proper role and share seniority with men (there are plenty of them - look at the G8 leaders male/female ratio,look at any group of public company boards, partners in leading accountants etc etc) because the women drop out to have children (and that genuinely is the reason, it's not discrimination - those bodies are desperate to keep women at those senior levels) it does damage the position of women and how they are perceived every time one drops out or works part time. And in those careers you cannot easily get back into it after a 5 or more year gap.

So yes I do think there is a duty on women to keep going and anyway it's more fun carrying on with those jobs than doing dull stuff with small children. I still will never understand so many women's desire to be at home unless I suppose they used to work the tills at Tesco and the work was never much fun anyway.

The men and women I know even in fairly how powered careers do tend to make quite an effort to be home with children whatever their level of seniority (indeed it's easier as you get more senior) and particularly if the wife works full time. When she does men just step up to the plate and get home to let the nanny go every day or every other day or do the morning school run but not the evening. In 23 years as a mother I have rarely met that many senior people who don't see their children all week. Women should also refuse to live in marriages where the husband goes to London to work all week too as that's too much of a cop out for men from cleaning the loo and getting the packed lunches ready. They need to insist they all live together in the week even if that means a worse house nearer a city centre.

SurfingMummy- joking apart, I very much agree that feminism should mean ability to exercise choices. Looks like many of us part company with Xenia when she implies (?) that a woman's top priority should be to go back to work in order to address the gender gap. This isn't realistic as people are bound to make decisions that suit them as individuals and from the family's point of view.

Xenia-There are enough hard working clever women in many organisations right now to promote to the top. Companies shouldn't have to wait until women are 50pc in middle ranks to promote deserving women to the top? Perhaps Harriet Harman's plan to increase tranparency on gender gap for individua; companies is a first step in creating an incentive for companies to address these gender gaps.

Xenia, as you say, it's everyone's right to choose. I don't want to stay at home FT with my kids either, but to use the view "it's more fun carrying on with those jobs than doing dull stuff with small children. I still will never understand so many women's desire to be at home.." as a statement of fact on which society should build a policy is simply daft! The fact is, society and the business world simply has to accept that most parents - both mothers and fathers - will want to achieve a balance between work and home that doesn't always involve FT childcare and putting the company first. The fact that parenthood is slightly inconvenient for business is simply tough. If it wants to keep the best workers it must adapt. Parents (especially working mothers) already bend over backwards enough as it is. The more guilt you pile on women for wanting to spend more time with young children, the longer it will take for things to change.

If SAHMs are 'ruining it' for WMs, then aren't WMs doing the same for SAHMs? Anyway, why push the cause (and not do what you want) for those women who want to work f/t when study after study shows most women want to work part time or not at all when their kids are little. Few want full time work.

If I took a poll of everyone in my office about 90% of tehm I'm convinced would say they would rather work part-time (or not at all!). Very few have children.

After taking part in this dicussion, I've decided that I am no longer a feminist. I am a personist.

Everyone should have the choice of how to live their life open to them, whether they're male, female, black, white, disabled or completely insane.

And now I really am off.

i wanted to work FT.had nursery place booked and deposit paid when 12wk pg.would not have wanted it any other way

i derive great vocational and intellectual stimulation from my career.enjoyedmat leave but tbh missed work the adult stimulation, challenging situations, having a discrete body of knowledge and specialist skills, team work, missed my collegues

the bit that amazed me was the assumption from some other mums and HV in baby group that no one would return FT. during a discussion the HV said to me "what did you used to do". God i felt like i had expired or something.

The trouble is that many of us agonise over the career/part time/stay at home decision. When we make what we consider to be the best choice for our situation, the last thing that we need is insensitivity and sneering from those who think that their solution is superior to ours. With that I leave the room too.

essentially chosing what to do with your children is a personal choice.what suits one doesnt suit another

and really no point metaphorically beating each other up about it

Oh good. I think we're all coming to a point of agreement.

The only thing in these arguments that makes me see red is when people use their beliefs to batter others who take a different position.

When I go to sleep absolutely bloody shattered from a shite day in the office battling politics and the like, one of the (many) things that makes me satisfied with my life is knowing that am continuing to push at the indirect discrimination that women still suffer from, and if my daughter suffers from discrimination in her working life, I want to at least be able to look her in the eyes and say I did my bit, even if I didn't get very far. We are still miles away from achieving equality. I don't give a fig whether other women want to metaphorically chain themselves to the same railings as me (although it sure as hell would make things easier), but I bloody wish to God they would stop having a go at me for being there.

To reply to : GodzillasBumcheek on Tue 08-Jul-08 21:49:07

"i fail to see how being officially qualified to look after a child necessarily makes you better at it. "

I didn't mean officially qualified, of course paper diplomas don't necessarily "qualify" you but I meant better able ie more patient, more experienced etc (which my childminder is, despite not having any formal qualifications).

As for getting up in the night and changing sheets etc. - I don't know what people think WOHPs actually do - we don't have live-in nannies you know ! We too are on call 24/7.

Haven't Slept - isn't it weird? There seems to be this assumption that mothers who work never do anything but work. Never read to a child, never go to the park, never spoon out Calpol, never arrange playdates, never cuddle or share jokes. Like they live at the office and don't like their children very much. It's not called the double shift for nothing you know.

Haven't Slept - isn't it weird? There seems to be this assumption that mothers who work never do anything but work. Never read to a child, never go to the park, never spoon out Calpol, never arrange playdates, never cuddle or share jokes. Like they live at the office and don't like their children very much. It's not called the double shift for nothing you know.

yes i love the assumption that Working Parents do sweet FA with their children. My fave has got to be the "Slammers" stereotype of avaricious parents who live to work and "slam" the kids into nursery

i do get days off too you know

"Kewcumber - you say that you reckon that about 90% of your colleagues, with or without dcs, would like to go PT. Really? I think most people would miss the reduced salary and/or be a bit bored, no?" - well I worked 4days prior to having children and loved it. What I agained more than made up for the financial sacrifice and I have singel childless friends trying (and failing) to negotiate the same.

Bored? Well I suppose if you're going to sit at home on your day off and watch daytime TV I suppose. I did worked for a charity on a voluntary basis.

"actually I found working far easier in many ways than looking after young children day in and day out" - me too but not necessarily as rewarding. I find a balance of both works well for me.

SurfingM - I know SAHM's who park their DC's in front of the TV most of the day and feed them McD's for meals. I don't think its the norm though and don't base my opinions of SAHm's on them.