To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

Xenia always makes some very pertinent points but then creates a huge distraction by patronising non-working moms. Tells me that she is:

a)just trying to wind up SAHMs for some fun
OR
b)Really passionate about storming the workplace with women
OR
c)just doesn't know how to influence and "win the argument"
OR
d)Feels deeply superior or insecure vs SAHMs
OR
e)Has a MN reputation as a protagonist to upkeep
OR
f)any combination of the above

I meant antagonist aot to protagonist,

Well quite.

And actually, from the employer's point of view, whether being a SAHM is a valid job or hard work rather than just sitting around swilling Chardonnay is neither here nor there. All the employer cares about is that the woman is not in the workplace.

This is all very interesting because here I am at my computer at home AGAIN at 9.45 working (OK taking 10 mins out to check on Mumsnet) because I am one of those part time employees who cops out of working full time so I can spend more time with my children

Yeah, right, so I can spend more time with my clients' emails when I should be relaxing on the sofa with a glass of wine, more like. I reckon I put in virtually a 4 day week for 3 days pay so perhaps I should just go full time after all.

I don't always agree with Xenia but the one thing she is spot on about is that the big moves in equality over the next few years have to come from men demanding their right to part time working and spending more time with their families and their partners' rights to a fulfilling career. I think most families would benefit from two part time careers rather than one person knocking themselves out working all the hours god sends and the other getting bored at home (OK I know that is an extreme example.)

I don't think fulltime SAHMdom is wrong at all, if it works for your family then that's great, but I do object to equality being referred to as 'feminist hype'. I am a feminist and proud of it, all it means is wanting equality with men in the workplace (and for men to have equality when it comes to childcare and parental rights and resposibilities too.)

Slight detour, but I'm always deeply suspicious of any adult woman who doesn't think of herself as a feminist.

WordS- I agree that more men demanding part time would make a change. However, I think this will happen at a slow gradual rate. My observation is that not that many men want to do this and a reasonable proportion of those that do so are excluded from fast track to the top. Big generalisations of course, and I am sure that you can all point to exceptions.

I think much change can come from women flexing muscle. Many of the professions have increasing number of women and I think govt has to give the framework for women to challenge sex bias. For example on fair pay.

Perhaps the next generation of men will be socialised to think differently about their roles and life styles but I don't really see a sea change from my generation. Just gradual change unless women demand change.

I don't think men will ever demand part time work. Not in great numbers. They know it leads to poor salaries and reduced pensions and lower status.

But that's just a vicious circle nkf - if men in large numbers did demand part time work, and it became the norm for large numbers of talented people in the 30-50 age bracket, then it would no longer lead to lower status and all those other problems.

something has to change to break that circle. while only women demand the right to part time work, part time work will continue to be seen as less valid and women as second class workers, whereas all the evidence in fact is that people who work part time tend to be more productive and more loyal (on the whole, I realise not in every case) and that women contribute enormously to the workplace.

ooo I'm feeling all revolutionary! rise up, fathers of the world! you have nothing to lose but your final salary pensions, career prospects and other fringe benefits!

LittleMD, i agree with nkf. men will not rise up and change this for women. Change will only be gradual. It is women that have to demand change. WOmen are 50pc of the vote so women do have the latent power IF they are really hungry for this change. My best guess is that it will continue to be a gradual change and our daughters will benefit greatly.

Good post SurfingMummy, I completely agree.

Even if I work on my rallying cry, ToughDaddy? Honest, I can make it catchier

I may not be taking this discussion entirely seriously any more. I'd better retire.

Good not to take everything too seriously. If these issues were key then women would have exercised their power at the ballot box as women are the most important swing vote. In reality there isn't deep discontent and companies are increasingly recognising that work life balance is a key instrument for retaining talent. So evolution is on the way but no revolution, i think.

This is why I think women are to blame for the position they are in in society. These other women are the root cause of the problems working women have because they all leave in their 30s just about so employers have not faith any of us actually like working full time and want to reach the top.

Also women cause the problems at home. Time after time they accept inequalities, laugh in that awful female way about the supposed incompetence of their man domestically, let a whole myriad of unfairnesses exist at home.

What they ought to be doing before they marry is (a) don't always go after men who earn more and don't always marry up (b) talk before marriage about which of you will look after children - don't let him assume you'll be the bored drudge at home doing low grade housework and 24/7 child care when you're not busy ironing his shirts (c) if you both work ensure domestic jobs are fair - never allow a situation to arise where because of supposed male incompetence he never pulls his weight (d) never get lumbered with having the second career for pin money and always being the one on call if a child is sick (e) ensure it is likely he recruits the nanny and finds the nursery place as you do.

And then if you're lucky you will end up single like I am, having paid out nearly £1m to him on a divorce and will live happily ever after or whatever.... laughing as I type. (Indeed it can be worse than that as you might also lose your children in the divorce if you really get things fair at home without gender bias)

Good points Xenia.

In reality, though, isnt it other women (nannies/childminders/cleaners/ etc) who end up picking up the slack at home, so that mothers can work?

How do these women fit into your scheme of things? Are they letting the side down too?

Xenia- as ever some very good points sprinkled with a little controversy . My DW did take your advice on my marrying down and domestic arrangements. But when one of us needed to stay at home for a few years it ended up being her as my earnings grew much faster than hers.

You have to get away from blaming women who choose to stay at home (for a variety of family reasons). Employers need to recognise the need to accomdate family life. Women should demand a CHOICE and equality throw the electoral process. But you can't blame women who exercise the very choice that you are demanding?

should be ....through the electoral process....

"Also women cause the problems at home. Time after time they accept inequalities, laugh in that awful female way about the supposed incompetence of their man domestically, let a whole myriad of unfairnesses exist at home."

I loathe the "aw, bless 'im, men are useless" women.

No, your man isn't useless - how else would he have you doing every sodding thing for him? This martyr-esque idiot example of a woman is deserving of much scorn.

So Xenia, you should advice women to go for pre-nup or don't they work over here?

advise

Back to the point. So Xenia are you saying that men should be able to choose whether they go back to work after DC1 but women should all go back to work?

Agree wholeheartedly with hunker
blaming women who for many good reasons choose to stay at home is as bad for another woman to do as it is for an empoloyer.

The arguement over who chooses to walk away from their career is stupid. the arguement should be that neither parent should have to walk away from their career.
As long as woman persist with the view that to create true equality the only option is for women to usurp the male role is an abdication of their responsibilty.
Women and men should demand that work practices change in order to support families who have two parents in the workplace.
We work longer hours than almost everyone because we buy into a macho working ethic.

Its bollocks.

I expect women to be able to choose. And if my choice is theat my children benefit the most from my being at home I think it is anti-feminism to suggest that I do not have that right.

I am also deeply suspicious of woman in the workplace who lecture others. I seemed to experience a huge number of females who achieved the same level of responsibility as I did at work and then instantly turned into 12 hour a day merchants who sneered at any request from their staff to be late/miss work for family related issues.

WE don't get equality of choice by out machoing the man and we certainly don't get it by sneering at other women.

Actually that was toughdaddy and hunker I agree with.

( especially as DH is way more competent at home than I am . If I 'aw bless'ed him I would be shooting myself in the foot)