To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

Well there are structures now for parents of children younger than 6 to request flexible working, Jellybeans, which can include a reduction in hours. There is no reason why it should be the mother than the father who requests this. However, it's a difficult issue because the bottom line is that not all jobs can be made flexible in a way that suits the employee without compromising the employer or other colleagues too much.
I am wary of agreeing with the statement that 'both parents working part time is better than both working full time' as I think there are some parents who choose full time, it suits them and that needs to be respected. However, i agree with the general point that society would benefit from a move towards more equal parenting, and as a general rule I would say it's better to have both parents working part time than one working full time, simply because it means that work and parenting are more evenly spread, which provides good role models for children. Things need to change from the roots up:- it's only by fathers being more actively involved in parenting and mothers being more active in the workplace that children will grow up with these expectations.I also agree that not all paid work is fulfilling. That's why it's hugely important to me to show by example to my kids that an interesting career is really valuable.

It's certainly is fathers (and wives who tolerate fathers who don't father) who need our collective knives sticking into them and public criticism for not doing more at home, not fighting to be the one at home and being in effect absent. Only by righting that wrong will women ever get the position they deserve in the world of work.

I certainly never wanted to work part time and many workers int he UK don't want to. A lot are currently fighting for teh right to choose to work over time and don't want a nanny state, EU or UK, telling them what hours they can work. Work can be much more fun than childcare as so many workers are aware.

Yep, insensitive and you don't know the full story about their financial situation. Its also just plain rude.

In an ideal world all parents would be lovely people and would be able to stay at home with their kids (mentally and financially). Yep they'd take them out and teach them and show them the world.

In reality what is best depends entirely on the family and what suits the individual situation. Some people I have worked with are very career driven and would have gone insane staying at home with their kids and the kids would have picked up on this. For some people (particularly like my single parent friend in a rural area) work can be their only form of social interaction, cutting themselves off wouldn't be great for kids. Yeah there are things like baby groups and baby yoga but that depends on where you live and if you can afford them.

Its the school holidays here and yesterday I heard a Mum shout at her boy (about 4) "I can't wait for you to go back to school on Monday you f u c king little ba stard", I hope that poor little thing got to go to childcare as a break from his hideous mother. Sadly, there are parents like that in the real world.

Financially not all parents do have a choice. The part-time idea is great, but we couldn't both go part-time as we have a huge mortgage to pay. Its not an extravagant mortgage, we live in a smallish 2 bed flat. We live in London and got on the property ladder late so its exthortionate. Yeah, we could downsize to a 1 bed flat in a horrid area where we are not happy stepping outside the door.

As it is, I would love to stay at home but can't. But I am really happy with the solution, from September Little Star will be 2 days at home with me, 2 days with grandma and 1 day at nursery. We can spend those 2 days walking in the woods and visiting the local city farm on our doorstep, if I gave up work we could spend 7 days a week trapped in a highrise flat with no spare cash, not sure who would benefit there!

All parents are different, all kids are different and each situation is different based on local economy/traditions and extended family/financial situations. All this needs to be taken into account before starting to guess whats right for any family. Heaping guilt on parents who have to stay at home or have to go to work doesn't help anyone, happy parents are always best for kids.

Exactly Tillystar -the choices parents make re work are usually economic ones. Very few coupes have the luxury of one partner being able to think "Hmmm.... shall I give up work for a few years?" even if they wanted to. And in such a case, whether they wanted to would probably depend on whether they had a fulfilling, interesting career or a checkout job.

And the trouble is the only guilt ever heaped is on mothers not on fathers. That's the problem with the whole thread.

The problem with the thread is that so many try to self justify and impose their own choice as the best/right one. SAHM feel very patronised by the way people assume that they are less capable and working mom's feel as though they are being accused of being satanic.

I don't think guilt should be a factor. Most people instinctively try to do the best for themselves and children. Guilt comes from other people's self righteousness and imposition of their own views on others.

My male friends are less judgemental re:this subject. It is my female friends who judge other women.

Xenia, what do you mean be a man 'being in effect absent.' Do you mean if they work full time? Also, (sorry if it wasn't you who said it) why is it OK for a man to stay at home but not a women? Surely if gender doesn't matter, then it works both ways?

Xenia, so a man that works full time is in effect absent but not a mother that races to get back full time after two weeks? By the sounds of it some children have both parents 'in effect absent'.

I think Xenia has a point in that while it is assumed that fathers will work and mothers will stay at home, then there is a tendency for the bulk of the childcare to fall to the mother EVEN if she works.

Many fathers work long hours to support their families and are much more absent than the mothers, even if the mother also works, and I think that's what Xenia is getting at - that it's acceptable for a man to do this while it would not be acceptable for a woman to do the same.

Imagine a mother who said 'during the week I'm never home in time to put my children to bed' - she would be judged much more harshly than a man who said that. Why should that be the case?

There was a really interesting piece in The Guardian Family section about this very thing, by Norman Fowler, who jacked in a cabinet job under Maggie because he genuinely felt he was missing out on his children growing up.

here

Interestingly, he says:

"Second, I suspect the mother will always remain the linchpin of the family. That is all the more reason for looking at her rights in the rest of her life. If we want to achieve greater equality of opportunity then there is still a long way to go. I agree with Harriet Harman on that. Now we need to concentrate on how women with children can have the flexibility in their working lives to reach the top jobs their abilities deserve.

And third, I feel sometimes that one of the dangers of this whole debate is that we too often put it in terms of "responsibilities", "duties" and "rights". We might recognise that from the man's point of view there are enormous benefits in becoming far more involved with children. Of course there are bad times as well as good and no father can, or should, be insulated from them. But, above all, there are times of pure enjoyment that will never come again. Stepping aside from your career, even for a short time, may seem foolhardy, but at the end of the day it is you who will benefit."

Was Norman Fowler fired? Because sadly, spending more time with your family is a terrible and much used euphemism for being fired. Apologies to NF if that wasn't the case.

As to why TD's more talented wife earned less, that's no accident either. Women do earn less than. Xenia excepted of course.

than men.

No, he wasn't fired, he genuinely resigned - he was the original 'want to spend more time with the family' which is where the phrase comes from.

1)I think women have the power to make real change just by making women's issues highest priority when they vote rather than the old right-left paradigm. After all women are about half the population, yet they haven't optimised this lever of power!! One analyst/researcher claimed that women have a tendency to be persuaded by the husband's voting choice.

2)One of the obvious reasons why men get paid more is that they tend to "strut" more than women at work. We are very good at taking credit. I find that being clever as a woman is not sufficient.

Observe the contenders for leadership of the Labour party and you will see that Harman hardly features compared to young Turk Milliband. Not making a comment on whether Milliband is a good politician but Harman would have been a contender if she were a bloke given her seniority, service and ability.

Similarly Teressa May doesn't strike me as being less able than David Davis, yet she didn't get a look in last time the Conservatives chose their leader

"One analyst/researcher claimed that women have a tendency to be persuaded by the husband's voting choice"

rofl not in our house toughdaddy - DP never even picks up a newspaper, and when elections come round I have to chivvy him to the polling station, where he asks me 'Who are we voting for?'

but them maybe i'm a nasty domineering type

It's better men stay home than women as women still have to prove they can work and it's worth hiring them and they won't all cop out in their 30s to wear aprons and bake cakes, just for the next 20 - 30 years whilst our recently won gains are consolidated.

xenia
do give it a rest dear, you must be exhausted from all that feminist hype going round your head.
You only ever see your point of view, and you only ever think you are right.
You dont want to be stereotyped as a 'just a mother' yet you are quite happy to state the rest of us should not all "cop out in 'our' 30s to wear aprons and bake cakes"
thanks for that!
I must go and check DH's pipe and slippers are ready for when he get in, and my frilly pinny is washed ready for the morning!
honestly...

To be fair, we know it's not copping out to bake cakes, but that's not what many employers think, so it's a valid point. Xenia is right - until employers stop viewing women of childbearing age as a liability, we'll be in a state of inequality.

If that means more men staying at home, I'm on that bandwagon.

but you are not speaking as employers, you are speaking as other women.That is what I find a bit disrespectful actually.
Statements like Xenia made come from her point of view, and she seems to show little respect for those mothers who do stay at home to bring up their children.I am taking this belief from many of her posts I have read over the last year or so.
I am happy to be proved wrong.

fgs there's no right or wrong answer and women like Xenia will always be around. I wouldn't take offence to her points of views - that's all they are.

ok