To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

You know, in 8.5 yrs of motherhood I have only met two mothers who really give a shit about how anyone else chooses to organise their work/life balance? Grandmothers and mothers in law are a bit different, and are from a different generation, but in the 21st century, when supposedly we can have it all if we choose to, why on earth is it anyone else's business unless children are being neglected? Most mums I know work to some extent or the other and generally speaking we are all very supportive of each other with after school and holiday help. I really don't know many mums who have the time to worry about other mums' arrangements!

But Wordsmith, on MN you worry about all sorts of things you would never worry about in RL

True Fairymum.

Xenia, why do you assume that any woman who doesn't go back to work a week after giving birth is letting the side down? I would rather use my DH as an example - he works 4 days a week, I work 3, so we both get the best of both worlds, and understand family life better. I'm not saying it's perfect but I for one enjoy seeing more of my kids than I would be able to if I worked a 12 hour day in the City or somewhere.

Granted I don't worn an island but we have a reasonable lifestyle, can afford to wear clothes, drive a car and go on holiday, so i don't reckon we're doing too bad!

own an island I mean.

(By the way, what type of island is it? Canvey or Necker?)

society is currently lacking educated sahms xenia

who the hell wants an island pas moi

In two parent families, isn't the point that it is a partnership and ideally you should make a joint decision that works for you as a team.

KatieDD- you make me laugh. There are many dads out there who work hard at home and work. We cook, clean, do the gardening, the shopping, bathe the children,...... for nothing :-)

ToughDaddy will you Marry Me ?

Well I am currently a SAHM after 14 years of working (9 with children) and I can't wait to get back to work. My kids are lovely, and right now it is the right thing to have a parent involved in their lives, and me being at home achieves that (we have just moved countries) but I know it is not using my brains in a very useful way, and I know the longer I do it the harder it will be to return to work. And yes I enjoy the status of having my opinions listened to (and acted upon) and knowing I have skills that are considered valuable. I also enjoy the money and the security that working brings. On the other hand I know that when I do return to work I will miss having time with the children, and the compromises that working brings with it. If I was a better SAHM maybe I would feel differently, but I guess that my domestic skills are probably only average, and to be honest I just don't get that much satisfaction them.

But that's just me isn't it? My siblings and friends have chosen different arrangements and apart from thinking about whether it makes them happy and if there is anything I could apply to my own life I don't really pay them much heed. I certainly wouldn't go around commenting on them to other friends (I really hate gossip).

Most women (and men) work and always have done and probably for reasons like nooka's and the others on the thread. My island is a bit of a red herring but certainly a fun thing I was able to buy because of my work, although at the moment I am not able to get there as much as I like (last there in January with one daughter) because of working full time and having 5 children but like a lot of women on the thread (and a lot of men) we all compromise things for our children all the time, every day, have more in common as parents whether we work or not than with non parents.

I also agree with the comment someone made above about differences between men and women. Read The Female Brain. I have never thought women and men were identical and it was just conditioning that made women less assertive and not wanting to be in charge of M&S, the Government or whatever. But some women are just as some men are pretty passive non achievers (in work terms). There are more differences within the sexes than between them.

The difficulty in 2008 is that it is a very short (in historical terms) period since we had the equal pay Act 1970 and sex discrimination legislation, since the time when women were routinely paid less simply because they were female and if we're not careful employers finding virtually all women in some jobs get off the track to the top in their 30s in professional jobs will juts in effet give up on them.

Now it is actually terribly helpful in many career structures that women do this because they need lots of very hard worked foot soldiers at the bottom but only a few can be top dog. If all the women just about leave when they marry Mr Rich who can keep them in comfort whilst they manage his house and have his children then the employer only has 50% of employees left so promotion is not so difficult an issue. So I suppose in some career structures it's convenient the women leave but it still disappoints me.

I wrote to Harriet Harmon last week about her Equality Bill not that I suppose they will take up my suggestion but I would like it to follow Norway and Spain and say 40% of company boards be compulsorily female. The good women candidates are out there if the recruiters are able to think laterally but often they don't. If there were compulsion they might.

Returning to the original post, it's also a pretty daft suggestion tht someone should sell up and downsize right now. Nobody's buying. And she'd end up paying loads to the taxman for the privilege. A house is a very illiquid asset.

YANBU, it annoys me when people say they can't afford to do something for their kids etc when they have a very high standard of living.

But MrsJ, is it unreasonable for her to say anything.

I think the whole point was though that downsizing would be the last thing on a very long list of things she could cut back on in order to stay at home with her baby if she so desired, so why play the marter and whinge to her friends she wishes she could be a SAHM when that option would clearly be available to her if she bought less shoes/clothes/tat.

How do we know she's playing the martyr? She mnight wish she could stay home and also want to go back to work. She might just be saying what she feels she ought to say. Especially if she's in front of a room full of stay at home mothers. Maybe she's just whinging. Most people don't want advice or if they do they ask for it. So, it's not unreasonable to offer advice but it is impertinent.

The point of some of us was that to suggest the woman not the man should be at home is sexist to the core and that when we find it said as often why is he going back to work when they could live on the wife's salary we might have made a tiny step forward towards reasonably non sexist positions.

I think Xenia is absolutely right to make this point. Whether as an individual you choose to work, or stay home, the fact is that there is a huge assumption in society that the father will automatically go back to work. When I had my dcs, no one asked my dh whether he was going to give up work/go part time. Whereas a lot of people asked me this question. It's hard to imagine a society where parents are treated equally over this, but it's certainly something we should aspire to achieving.

What is worth reiterating I think is that the "individual choices" always tend to the same way. Earlier on this thread a poster wrote that her husband's job limited her work options. I don't think you'd ever hear that said the other way round, that a woman's job limited her husband's opportunities.

Now, where I part company with Xenia's analysis is that she seems not to recognise the tremendously strong pull that women can have towards staying with small babies. Do men feel it less? Or do women give in to it more? Or what? It's the age old biology versus social conditioning argument really.

I think you make a really good point nkf. Where I stand on it is: no, I'm not sure that men feel that 'pull' any less. Even if they feel it differently, their feelings are just as valid. My dh is just as much a parent as I am. Also, even assuming that biological 'pull' is maybe stronger for the mother in the early weeks (and I must stress that I'm not saying it definitely is, just that if we assume it is) much of this thread is not about the early weeks of a child's life. It's about people taking career breaks of several years, of giving up on a career altogether. And I don't believe there is anything to suggest that a woman can do this 'better' than a man. Men are just as capable of playing with their children, taking them to toddler groups, doing the shopping, cooking the dinner, cleaning the house etc. This is where I think Xenia's point is entirely valid. Whatever our individual choices, there is no doubt that society makes an awful lot of assumptions about gender roles.

The thing I wonder is, if more men became SAHDs, would the WOHMs be happy with him getting custody in a split?

JB - I think almost certainly not. But I've never heard a woman give that as a reason for not working. I think it's possible that some think it.

Some recent threads on that jellybeans.

Interesting thought..... I really don't know jellybeans. My gut feeling is that in the majority of cases, where both parents love their children, then both parents are going to feel very strongly that they want equal access and responsibility. Why shouldnt they? If, god forbid, DH and I ever split, I hope we would both recognise that we still continue to have equal responsibility as parents, and should have equal rights. Actually, let me turn that around, because of course, it isnt about our wants and rights. Our children would have the right to both parents having equal access and responsibility.

But the child usually lives with the parent who has done the bulk of the childcare and whose job is the least time consuming. That person is usually the mother. It seems clear to me that women get something out of not working. They get more time with their children, more say over the details of the children's lives. Perhaps for some women that is a reasonable trade off for earning money.

Yes I think you're right there nkf. FTR I also believe strongly in the child's right to have both parents in their life (except obviously when not in the best interests of the child, abuse etc)and hope if DH and I split then we could be amicable, I see so much bitterness around me in friends who have split.

StressTeddy on Sat 05-Jul-08 22:22:07

"I must also say that whilst I think your feminist diatribe is (somewhat admirable) you forget a very simple and basic fact of life. Genes. Many women feel a need/desire to stay at home (even if part-time) largely due to the fact that this is in their make-up. You may hate this fact as a feminist but I'm afraid it is true."

Out of all the SAH/WOH discussions this is the one fact that time after time seems to get overlooked.

Well said.