To suggest that a new mum who "has" to go back to work, reluctantly, after maternity leave, could down-size from her five-bedroom house and thereby afford to stay at home?

[Twoddle]

I have a good friend who really does have to go back to work when her maternity leave ends later this month. She and her husband genuinely can't afford to live without both their salaries so, as much as she'd like to stay home longer, she can't.

Another friend's sister, however, was pulling the "It's all right for some mums, hanging around at home all day - some of us have to go back to work" line. Knowing that she lives in a four-bedroom house and is having a loft conversion and buys everything new for the home and for the soon-to-arrive baby and has a bit of a clothes-buying habit ... well, I tactfully and carefully suggested to my friend that maybe her sister didn't have to return to work so soon if it was important for her to be at home for longer with her child. I said she could downsize to a smaller home, maybe cut back on some spending, and then be able to afford to extend her maternity leave - if she so wished.

Said friend warned me through a steely glare never to say such words to her sister, and the atmosphere was abysmal between us for the rest of the evening.

Was my suggestion so unreasonable, in the circumstances?

Silly me for playing devil's advocate ...

toughdaddy I have often thought that if we were ever in a war situation involving rations, being very quiet in a bunker etc then our children would not be able to do it

They are far too spoilt and over indulged

Many of the children I see would simply not understand the words "No. you cannot have the tv on we are in a black out"

oh, and for the record this over-parenting I am referring to does not come from either sidae of the fence, sahm or wom

I agree that over-parenting can equally come from working parents.

I am just making the point that we judge our own and other people's parenting as though there is some objective measure as to what the ideal parent should and shouldn't do.

Hands up (and please be very honest) anyone who DOES NOT judge what their friends do with their children

I know that dh and I have long chats about what our friendsa are doing and how we would never do it that way

If you say you don't do this then I know you are lieing!!!!

You can be a very good parent whether you work or stay at home. Problem is that the role of SAHPs is often not valued by so many. I recall some of the presumptions made about my wife's education/status when she was SAHP. But then some SAHPs get self righteous/judgemental about their choice vs Working parents. Should all chill and accept diversity of people's family arrangements and that children do not have to be in ideal circumstances to thrive.

I don't agree it's a neutral choice if women give up work or give up the track to the top. Every woman who does that is damaging other women. Evey woman who goes part time when her husband doesn't is reenforcing a sterotype and making employers realise that it's a bad deal to employ women as they don't give their all. It's a betrayal of other women who have fought to give women the chance to lead plcs. It's a very bad example if they all bail out when they move on to the mommy track as so so many do. It is virtually certain that you take any profession, you feed in more than 50% women at 22 and by 35 - 40 you will only have 10% senior people who are women not because of discrimination but because they unlike men stay home. It's often because the man earns more so it's a simple economic decision and most women subconsciously marry up, someone who will or does earn more and is a bit older so when push comes to shove women's careers are shot to pieces.

You can run companies and enjoy a family as plenty of women and men in the city do, some with 5 - 8 children, very well. It is not a choice of work part time and have children or don't have children and work full time.

(Yes, I own an island - if more women picked lucrative careers and were good at them they could buy their own islands too I suppose but they don't, they pick low paid work because they like to be servile and aren't interested in capitalistic ideas like making money and then they give it all up or work part time anyway)

Having a lucrative city career and eight children doesn't make a woman a better person, though, does it?

Richer, busier, greedier, perhaps...

Xenia - hello we have not met before on a thread. I am stressteddy and I have seen your name a lot on these types of threads

I love the fact that you own your own island - good on you girl. I do however find it distasteful that you have to link your owning an island to other women's poor choices for not owning an island

I must also say that whilst I think your feminist diatribe is (somewhat admirable) you forget a very simple and basic fact of life. Genes. Many women feel a need/desire to stay at home (even if part-time) largely due to the fact that this is in their make-up. You may hate this fact as a feminist but I'm afraid it is true. We are not sea horses after all

Its more complicated Xenia. The reason many women give up work, go on the part-time/ mummy-track is that most jobs are not compatible with being a parent who wants to see their child more than an hour or so a day. Make the jobs more flexible and parent-friendly and more women would climb to the top of the ladder also after having children. I don't think its fair to say that its the women who need to leave their children behind and fight this corner. I think companies need to realise what they are missing out on (which I think they do increasingly) and fathers need to get more involved by following DH's example of taking paternity leave for example.

I don't want an Island, really I don't and if that lack of motivation to own an island is letting other women down then really the world has gone mad. The point being that I don't want to be a corporate slave, when you are on your death bed Xenia you will be proud of your Island and I shall be proud of my banana cake, we'll both be happy in our choices I'm sure.

Xenia- our individual choices are NOT all based on fighting sexism, racism, globalisation, global warming and all the evils of the world. Every day, many of us make choices that reinforce some of these evils that we are ALL appalled by. Feminism should be about giving women the freedom choose to be whatever they want to be - SAHM or WOHM.

You assume that everyone wants to optimise the career aspect of their lives. I think that is a one-dimensional outlook.

The older I get, the surer I am that some of the most important lessons parents have to pass on to their children are those of moderation and self-restraint.

The thing is, given a totally free choice, some women would choose to stay at home and some would choose to continue their careers.

But - here's the crux - some men might choose to stay at home, while some might choose to continue their careers.

So saying that ALL women should choose to pursue their careers in order to support the fight for equality is nonsense, IMO. Taken to its ultimate conclusion, it just means women would swap roles with men and become the chief providers.

Far better to support more men to stay at home, thus allowing more women who want to to work full time, in order to balance the scales.

I really can't be bothered. I'd love to join in on this discussion, but i've seen these threads soooooooooooo many times before, and every argument has been done to death. Please forgive me for being a quitter, but i'm proud to look after my kids, and if that sucks for feminism, tough cheddar.

Spot on LittleMyDancing.

Surely, with a name like yours, you should say Kiss my Ass instead of tough cheddar!

I also think that what these wohm vs. sahms debates are often missing is that a wohm who earns a lot of money and is very successful has very little in common with a wohm who works the tills in the local petrol station.

Harrummmph.

Sorry Fairymum that was not to you

ToughDaddy I think you're my new best friend

got to go and pay DP some attention now, he's resorted to brandy.....

Good night all

Great, great point fairy mum

Working mother's with well paid husbands/patners also have a very different perspective

Well done you

I wonder whether an ethnic minority dad who wants to be SAHP is betraying any cause?

bye chum. Promise to try not to sound too sycophantic.

I think the ethnic minority SAHD would probably be voted for as a local MP and therefore compromise all his ideals but he would be required to be hailed as a hero in some way.
After all most men want at least a blow job for putting their socks away