To believe that Parents must have the right to tell their children they are not “in the wrong body” and children cant be “transgender”?

[DoubleMM]

The government wants to bring in a law that threatens anyone including parents with up to five years in prison for denying a child’s or an adult’s “transgender identity” -. The draft Bill is in Committee stage. Labour have committed to making it law. Surely this is just bringing back the Scottish Parliament’s vote that everyone has to agree? That men are women if they say they are? This time parents are in the firing line if they dont agree to their child being “transed” at school or elsewhere? The Bill proposes that the courts should be able to make an order to enforce compliance on parents. Surely this can’t be allowed to go through without a fight?

What problem is the bill solving that isn’t already covered by existing legislation?

In addition, to respond more directly to OPs point rather than highlighting the tragedy of using the term 'conversion practices' incorrectly.. And to highlight the dangers parents are being put in by this government that OP suggests:

Nothing in the Conversion Practices Bill protects parents

The bill has no exemption for parents, other family members, friends, teachers or social workers. Nor does it make provision for schools that follow the latest Keeping children safe in education guidance.
The definition of “abusive” is left open, and the bill says courts should consider, among other things, whether the conduct involves “economic pressure” or “psychological or emotional pressure”. Parents frequently apply such pressure to children, and doing so may be necessary to keep children safe.

Conflicts between children and parents are an ordinary part of family life, as parents seek to instil their beliefs, values and rules, and try to protect their children from harm. This is not the same as a coercive or controlling relationship between adults. A husband who took his wife’s phone away to control her conversations is doing something wrong; a parent who does this to stop a child talking to strangers they have met online, or to stop them from sourcing cross-sex hormones from street dealers or on the internet is being loving and responsible. It is not the role of the state to protect a child’s “freedom” from the boundaries that their parents choose and enforce.

The harm test is much lower than the minister claims. Phillipson says that conduct must reach the level of causing “serious physical or psychological harm” in order to trigger prosecution. But the bill gives a second, lower option of “serious alarm or distress to the individual which has a substantial adverse effect on their usual day-to-day activities”.

If a child becomes convinced that a parent’s attempt to stop them presenting as the opposite sex, or being referred to as the opposite sex is harming their day-to-day activities, that could prompt a criminal investigation of the parents, and of anyone who supports them. The chilling effect is clear.

Protection orders have no stated limits. The bill would let courts issue “conversion practice protection orders” containing “such prohibitions, restrictions or requirements” as they consider appropriate. There is nothing to say courts won’t make orders telling a parent to use particular names or pronouns. Breaching an order without “reasonable excuse” could lead to up to two years in prison.

Bayswater Support Group made a similar point on X. It said the minister’s assurance is contradicted by the bill itself.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/nothing-in-the-conversion-practices-bill-protects-parents/

“An op-ed by a politician will be scant consolation when a parent is facing a criminal claim or a protection order that will destroy their relationship with their child.”

Speculation is that it’s a sop to trans rights activists from the Labour government because so many have stropped off to the Green Party because they accepted the Supreme Court judgment that sex is biological not identity. It was first proposed by the Tory government and the gender identity part proved so tricky they ended up dropping it and putting the whole thing on the back burner, so obviously TRA influenced politicians in Labour saw it as a point scoring exercise and boasted about “a fully trans inclusive bill”.

https://sex-matters.org/campaigns/stop-the-conversion-practices-bill/

A new criminal offence of trying to change someone’s “gender identity” would harm vulnerable children and loving parents.

And it isn’t needed: true abuse is already illegal.

But it needn’t get to prosecution. We’ve already seen plenty of examples of individual police officers, with the tacit backing of their force, who’re very happy to make the process the punishment.

The arrests, the invitations to interview, the threat of a prosecution left hanging over a parent’s head. ‘Justice’ is anything but swift and an ‘investigation’ can be stretched over a year or more.

Bring on the threat of SS intervention and there would be very few people that wouldn’t feel under enormous stress. They lose a year+ of their life (plus whatever legal bills they wrack up trying to defend themselves).

And yes, I do believe a judge could be swayed by a teen’s hissy fit. They’ve been ‘trained’ on how to be ‘sensitive’ to the TRA point of view. Trot out a captured GP and/or counsellor for their rent-an-opinion, and the parent’s facing an uphill battle.

Ok so based on the early posts it seems that’s not what the bill suggests at all?

Goes off to read

What will happen?
Situations like these could lead to criminal prosecution:

• A psychotherapist suggests that a client who says they are trans, and who has a history of trauma, explores the trauma first.
• A psychologist tells a gender-distressed teenager that it is possible to feel comfortable in their own body.
• A social worker asks whether a girl’s disgust at her own body might be linked to sexual abuse.
• A mother explains to her 11-year-old daughter who says she is non-binary how her body will change during puberty.
• Parents tell a teenage son who identifies as a girl they will not pay for puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones.

There’s a court case coming up in November where a man has had a hate crime recorded against him without any sort of legal process at all.

Luckily the later posters are much better informed

Yes. Hence they've incorrectly used the term 'conversion therapy' . Fcking disgusting. And the fact that the Labour Government are enabling it - WTH. I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. We know who they are.

Quite. And let’s remember also that the only times they’re given to children otherwise is to arrest precocious puberty, eg a five year old girl who is developing breast buds and pubic hair and has started menstruating. They’re given for a finite period and then stopped as soon as the child reaches the age where puberty could usually start, and then of course the child goes through puberty normally.

That’s a world of difference away from giving them to children who are at the normal developmental age of puberty with the express intention of permanently and completely preventing and blocking that normal puberty (something like 99% of children on PBs for “gender dysphoria” go straight onto cross sex hormones and so never go through a natural puberty).

And even in the case of precocious puberty, with such clear benefits as preventing a very young girl from having to manage periods, either physically or emotionally, and without the clear harm of preventing normal human development at the appropriate stage, there is now an awareness of the risks and potential harms down the line and debate about the rightness of such a course of action.

If this highly questionable ideology hadn’t become so embedded (with the help of billionaire activists) so quickly, and in every sphere of life, no one but the very worst kind of men would ever have thought for a minute that stopping children from going through the normal process of maturation that leads to adulthood, at the appropriate age, was anything other than a shockingly abusive experiment.

Giving children, who are overwhelmingly likely to be same sex attracted, hormones to first block their natural puberty and then mimic the opposite sex is the real “conversion therapy” that should be banned outright, no exceptions.

The fact our brave new Labour government is insisting on harming some children in this way (“here’s £500 of vouchers in exchange for your future fertility and sexual function!”), and the fact that the forms of child abuse supposedly targeted in this bill are already illegal gives the lie to any pretence that this is about protecting children; this is about appeasing trans activists and subverting the For Women Scotland Supreme Court judgement, sneaking genderist ideology onto the statue books through the back door.

They haven’t. Most people have no idea of what is going on.

Yeah I agree. We can't forget that we got to the point where in a court of law - a woman who had been raped by a man - had to call the rapist man by his self assigned gender and female name, in court. A man that violently raped her using his penis. In a court of law, the raped woman had to call the rapist she / her / Mrs Smith. So yes, anything is possible in the circus of gender wang, it would appear. Thank god for the SC judgement.

Yes. And also the Trans Widows scenario: a woman who objects to her husband wanting to blow the couples’ savings or the kids’ uni fund on “gender affirming” treatment/clothing/accessories (boob job, and any amount of lingerie, wigs, silicone forms, make up etc etc) could also face criminal proceedings for “financial coercion”.

Exactly this.

I have been GNC since I was a child, and LGB post puberty.
If I was young now I would be absolutely told that I was really a boy, and medicalised/mastectomied under the guise of gender affirmation and trans ideology.

What is absolutely NOT recognised in this "conversion practice" bill is that transing young and sometimes ND LGB's is utterly legal and state supported gay conversion therapy.

It isn't the Slough wing of the Westboro Baptist church and electrocution that modern young LGB's need to be protected from, its the T and its proponents who want to ram them full of hormones / remove breasts or invert penises to create vague appropriations of heterosexual members of the opposite sex.
Lesbians to straight trans men, and gay males to straight trans women.

And of course, this ideology has wormed its way so deeply into government and surrounding agencies / elements of society that pointing out its exceptionally glaring homophobia and refusing to collaborate with it is now deemed to be bigotry of the highest order and something worth criminalising via a revamped anti conversion bill.

Hmm.

Yes, exactly. Many of these men are masters at DARVO. It’s worth reading the trans widows support threads here.

Well worth a listen

Parent of detransitioner warns against planned law

Helen Joyce talks to a mother.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/videos/parent-of-detransitioner-warns-against-planned-law/

OP, you’re quite right, and successful barrister and legal expert Naomi Cunningham very much agrees with you.

x.com/LoudBonnet/status/2108654293863874826

For those who are unaware of the consequences of this bill or read the inaccurate statement from the government please read the links below which includes a legal breakdown of how dangerous this bill is and proves that even ministers don't understand this bill

https://x.com/Jebadoo2/status/2112211196514566500?s=20
https://x.com/MensNetwork1/status/2112573445301272890?s=20

I hate Labour so much

having dragged their feet about implementing the SC judgment for 18 months, they are now throwing vulnerable children to the wolves as a sop to trans activists.

they are disgusting human beings

even if parents refusing to trans their children is found not the meet the threshold for “harm”, it was cause irreparable damage dragging them and responsible therapists, teachers etc through the courts to establish where the boundaries lie. And we all know that the TRAs absolutely love to clutter up the courts with their vexatious complaints.

Totally agree. State approved child abuse. Horrific. Brave New World-esque.

Excellent, thank you

The only conflation going on is those who constantly drag LGB into this. We are same-sex attracted, not delusional idiots who think they can change sex.
LGB without the T.

It is not "compassionate" to tell your child they CAN change sex, and that will solve all their (typically multiple) issues. My daughter was trans for 4 years. I told her she was NOT a boy trapped in a girl's body, and that I was completely against medical intervention. That is not 'abuse', even if it caused her some distress. She was already distressed, groomed to an impossible dream.

After 4 years, she stopped 'being trans', realised she was just a girl, a girl who didn't want male attention and just wanted to be seen as a human first, not judged on appearance, 'hotness', etc etc.