For believing the drop in birth rate IS mostly because people who don't want children no longer have to have them

[CurdinHenry]

"Fertility experts" like Geeta Nargund in the news again insisting that "people still want to have children". Obviously some people wish they could have more children than they get to have. But it's never been a better world for people who are just not into it at all (or try one then realise it's not that much fun).

I don't think a survey asking people in vague terms if they'd like kids one day counts as proof of anything.

I think the reality is this is not a reversible trend. So we need to change how we do things so we are not constantly depending on a growing population for the sake of our economy.

and 4: people wanting to have children but never being in the right circumstances to have them.

I think that PP means they never had children because they never wanted them (actively did not want them) vs. never had children because they were never in the right circumstances to have them but would have had them had they been. The latter describes me and most of the childless women I know.

I’m Gen X.
It was unsaid but it was expected that we would get married and have children. Luckily I wanted that.

A member of my extended family was married at 22, had a DC at 30, developed horrible PND and didn’t have any more DCs.
I don’t think she ever really wanted to be a parent.
I don’t think the Mum has ever really bonded with her (now adult) DC.
If we were 20 years younger there would have been less pressure on her to have a baby and I think she probably wouldn’t have done.

No. I am disagreeing with you that Japan has done anything of note to prepare or plan for the problems it will face sooner than many other nations because of its falling population and high percentage of old people.

You mentioned a tax and more people working in old age in Japan.

I pointed out that the current UK government has increased tax and is exploring the possibility of many more, and that legislation protecting people's right to stay on at work after retirement age is stronger in the UK than in Japan.

You are right that the elderly population in Japan is in good health relative to many other countries, but I don't accept that that is due to any government initiative.

I see that your insight into Japan comes "from friends", which explains a lot.

In many of the historical work strikes, workers who were striking DID enjoy their jobs, just not the poor pay and conditions. I imagine the Dagenham women were proud of their sewing skills, junior doctors striking recently are proud of healing people, and teachers enjoy teaching by and large. Miners struck because they wanted to carry on doing their job. It's just an effective way to get your point across.

a stark gap in education opening up in those countries too, and so many educated women can't find a suitable match

How so? Are women being educated more widely and better than men?

Well, it's true across the whole developed world, nowadays, that people who don't want them don't have to have them. But the birth rate varies a fair bit between different European countries, North America, Australia etc. Human nature presumably doesn't vary all that much, so there's got to be other factors at play. And it seems that in countries where housing and childcare are cheaper, birth rates are higher. I think there's definitely people in the UK having fewer children than they want because of the crippling costs.

People take kids future plans way too seriously. Just watch “I am jazz” where they decided their son was a girl because he said he was aged 2.

I don’t remember ever thinking about having children as a child (and I never played with baby dolls)until I was 15 when me and my boyfriend became obsessed with having a baby and we actually managed to conceive one (at 15).

I’m yet to meet anyone else that purposefully had a child that young. Weird thing is we are all mid-late 20s and the girls who were obsessed with babies in primary school still haven’t had any kids yet.

You really can’t tell how someone’s going to be as an adult based on how they are as a kid imo

And 5: people having fertility issues despite not leaving it too late. I was 29 when I started ttc. I never did get pregnant. Not all infertility is age related.

If you split out the birth-rate by maternal age, the biggest drop is for mums under the age of 25. Most other age brakets are steady or only show a minimal decline. A slight increase for the oldest age bracket.

The declining birth rate is due to giving young women with accidental pregnancies the choice to not have to abandon their other plans for the sake of early motherhood. This can only be a good thing.

I bet the people bewailing it are exactly the same people who demonise single mothers and oppose any government policies that make life easier for single mums.

@BadLad well this is exhausting! 😆😆😆

Lets try one more time…

I have not once said Japan has done enough to mitigate the impact of falling birth rates. That had nothing to do with my original comment which was simply comparing the two countries approach to changing demographics in response to another poster.

What I have said is they have done more than the UK who have traditionally just relied on immigration.

Japan became an ageing society a long time ago and started planning in the 80s, remember they already have the highest proportion of old people. We are not where they are yet.

Of course government initiatives impact health. Japan has increased healthy life expectancy since the 90s, access to universal healthcare & focus on community initiatives play a part as I already said. The UK is also more economically unequal than Japan which impacts health.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/long-reads/england-japan-sweden-challenge-ageing-society

Perhaps the above will help you understand why I said the UK has not approached the changing demographics in the same way as Japan.

I don’t understand why you need to be Japanese or English (I am neither) to have an opinion that Japan has a different approach to the UK!

The declining birth rate is due to giving young women with accidental pregnancies the choice to not have to abandon their other plans for the sake of early motherhood. This can only be a good thing.
Well, hopefully a lot of them would just not get pregnant, contraception is better for health than termination.
But that's not why it's declining, some of those women might never want children, but a lot who don't have children by choice in their 20s may be childless not by choice later. And that's not a "silly them they should have had that baby in their 20s" judgement, it's just an assessment that being childless was the right thing for them, until it wasn't, but either men, their bodies, or society didn't cooperate when they got older.

@MrsShawnHatosyThats a good point about fertility not all being age related. I have friends and families who struggled in their 20s.

No. I am disagreeing with you that Japan has done anything of note to prepare or plan for the problems it will face sooner than many other nations because of its falling population and high percentage of old people

But this is what you are misunderstanding, they already are facing it! They already have the highest proportion of older people and I think this has been the case since the 90s

More women are going to university so getting a “formal” education. I also think that brings with it a cultural difference too.

I don’t care if my partner has been to uni but many university educated women do.

Yep. A former teacher of mine started in her mid 20s and was never able to have them.

And some infertility that is discovered mid thirties onwards is a decline of pre-existing lower fertility that might have prevented or limited children earlier anyway.

But there's also male fertility.

Funnily enough the only circumstance I would consider an additional child would be if my husband died unexpectedly, as his life insurance would mean I would be comfortable and afford excellent support with no need to work. But I could also take advantage of the fact that I could use younger donor sperm than my husband's.

For there to be disparity they must be going to Uni more than men which seems an unlikely trend anywhere.

They are going to university more than men.

https://www.unesco.org/en/articles/number-students-higher-education-more-doubled-20-years-inequalities-remain

and:

Female students now outnumber male students globally; although there are still fewer women in STEM subjects worldwide, several Asian countries have a higher share of women enrolled in STEM degrees than in arts, human-
ities or social sciences

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/sites/default/files/the_unesco_gender_equality_report_part_2.pdf

This has been a global trend for quite some
time. I believe the main region where this is not the trend is Sub-saharan Africa and parts of Asia (specifically Japan and South Korea.)

The 50/50 point was in 1992.

I'm married to someone who didn't go to university until after we got married, and I have a PhD, so not everyone cares, but some people do. I'd say just as much men who can't get over marrying someone who's more educated than them, rather than vice versa.

I don't think it does. I get that there will still be comments, not 'snarky' necessarily, just genuinely curious or incredulous that you don't want children.

I don't think that's any more or less than it's ever been, it's part of human nature to a degree, to want children and not really understand people who don't. But I don't think that equates to there being 'pressure' on people to have children. The sort of people who really don't want them are generally more than capable of sticking to their guns on that score and always have been.

It wasn't a choice when it wasn't a choice, in that reliable BC didn't exist and safe, legal abortion didn't exist.

As soon as it was a choice, and something a couple could control, then it was a choice.

I didn’t expect others to ‘understand’, although I do find it odd that anyone would question a perfectly legitimate choice about someone’s life.

I knew all my life I didn’t want children yet people felt compelled to tell me how I would change my mind as I got older. It’s so bloody patronising. I’m AuDHD (although I was undiagnosed til my 50s) so not exactly prone to dithering about decisions.

I wouldn’t tell someone who wanted children in the future that they would change their mind. I also wouldn’t ask them why they wanted to have them yet apparently it’s okay the other way round.

Thankfully I hit menopause so they don’t say it - although my mother gets faux sympathy that she’s not a grandparent, despite that being her worst nightmare!

But women were judged heavily for making that choice. It’s hideous that women were (and still are to a point) defined by their reproductive status