Are middle aged female groups even worse than school?

[BeethovenNinth]

i have been part of a group for four years, mainly because kids were friendly and then morphed. There is a core of them who have been tight friends for years. I suspect I was only included at the start as my youngest was v friendly with theirs.

over the last few years I have met these women at various events - camping. Parties. Beach trips. Regularly. Indlvifually some are lovely and I would meet for a coffee or a cycle. As a group, it’s quite drinking and cliquey (and they are renowned for that). I don’t really drink so suspect that already sets me apart but I’m actually very good at socialising sober - most people don’t know.

over the years a few other women have been added to the group and I think the main core of the group have decided to pull it all back to their original crowd. Which they are entitled to do. So I’m no longer invited to anything except individually by the few that I would meet anyway.

I have had several years of a very tough time as one of my kids has been very mentally unwell. Since lockdown we have had anorexia, bulimia etc. this year has been the worst - it’s been utterly horrifi and we have had major self harm and an overdose and so several hospital trips. I suspect I have been on the verge of a mental breakdown but I always keep the show on the road, work wise and because I have other kids. The group know of some of these issues and a few know of this year. I am not highly negative - sometimes I will say it’s been v tough but move on as the purpose of group meets is to have light chat and a laugh.

I feel after a very long tough year I have now also been dumped by these friends. Our group chat has gone quiet as they arrange things elsewhere. It’s not just me. There are a few others in a similar place. But I have socialised the most. I have invested the most. I suspect it’s not hugely personal - I just don’t fit perhaps. But it’s so so hurtful and it’s devastated me.

it actually really hurts. Some of the social stuff has been a lovely divert from a v difficult time and I grew close to some of these women (who I might still see individually). I have helped many of them out with things etc.

i usually am mentally strong but am at such a low ebb that bizarrely this is what has finally tipped me into a very dark place. I can’t stop ruminating that people - women - can be so thoughtless. I am very kind and deliberately will never exclude anyone.

• is this because I give off an air of sadness even if I mask it?
• they maybe haven’t even thought of me at all. I’m just an aside.
• they worry if they had my life they wouldn’t cope so it’s better to avoid me?
• I have archived the group and will pull back.

i do have other friends - and i cherish them even more now.

thank you!

I think we have different types of friends through life - some longtime permanent friends, some transitional friends that drift in and then out of our lives, and, if you’re lucky, that one ‘best’ friend you have for the laughs, honest talking, and endless support if needed.

It’s probably nothing you’ve done - friendship groups morph and change. 😉

I’m sorry, it sounds extremely painful, on top of everything else you are going through. I understand you must feel very abandoned.

To put things in context, I think friendship groups like this are always inherently unstable and they work really well in certain circumstances but can fracture in others. I have noticed over the years that there are usually sub groups within the overall group which are stronger than the whole and when there are tensions or when things become more difficult it becomes harder to keep the group together. It’s sometimes painful but also natural.

In their defence I think a lot of people really struggle to deal with situations where someone who they know but don’t know really well is going through something traumatic. People are wary of being intrusive or “prying” and will sometimes pull back in a way that can seem cold and detached. Usually it’s because they don’t know how to deal with it.

Its totally understandable that you want to withdraw a bit and rely on people you know really well. But I wouldn’t necessarily write these people off or cut them off. Its very likely they are just awkward and struggling to know how to conduct themselves as opposed to being actively unkind.

I am sorry though and I hope you have people you can rely on.

They don’t seem like close friends of yours though, from the start. They seem more situational friends. They aren’t invested in you on a deeper level a real friend would be.
My ‘group’ there are women within it who are closer to each other than the general group, and others who come along but if they moved away wouldn’t be particularly missed (nor would they miss the group) as it’s not a fundamental support system for them. It’s more casual than that.

I think there's a difference between people who you are friendly with and socialise with, and real friends. These were not real friends. Maybe they have pulled back on wider friendships now that the children are older and are sticking with their core group. I wouldn't take it personally and would concentrate on your real friendships.

Thanks all

I think my mental fragility has made me lose all sense of usual perspective so this has been helpful. I really really need to toughen up.

You shouldn't need to toughen up OP, you need love and support. However, in a crisis we do see the limits of certain friends that we might've never expected. Lean on your good friends.

These sound like situational friendships rather than strong ones

Honestly it sounds like you didn’t like the group particularly as a unit anyway and you continue to see the individuals you care for. I understand feeling hurt because they’ve withdrawn and your year has been tough. It can feel like being kicked when you’re down especially when they know you’re going through something. True friends don’t pull away in times like this unless they’re overwhelmed by their own sphere of difficulty. So you know what they are to you now.

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you are blaming middle-aged women. I'm assuming you haven't got a circle of young, male friends who continue to be a great support? I can see why you're hurt but people can choose who they spend their time with - it's not a duty. As pp have said, these were situational friends and can often ebb and flow depending on circumstances.

You don't need to tough up, but practice letting things go. These women were friends for a season, but is hard to let go sometimes.

yellow I actually have a fair few gay male middle aged pals and they are refreshingly straightforward!!

but I do think women can be as mean as school kids.

it didn’t feel situational to me. That’s the sting. I did a lot for some of them. They won’t know I’m so upset - I’m just very very fragile to life’s knocks.

I don't think this is about women - as pp said, you immediately don't expect men to help you just women. I do think being more self sufficient is key. It is hard when you feel you have been hit by every traumatic branch of the tree of life, but really as you say the groups you mention don't seem to be very supportive anyway, so why rely on them?

Pity parties are needed, I have had plenty, life is not fair just sounds trite but often it really isn't. Those with fewer problems often get more support and people are drawn to people who have less stress for fun. It is sadly part of the human experience. In my opinion it is quality over quantity with friends. I don't really like the groups as there is always the group psychology at play somewhere, which can make anyone feeling slightly weak feel paranoid pretty easily. I have appx 5 close friends who I can rely on, but again I wouldn't dump everything on just one and expect them to save me, rather we do an activity and rant our issues at each other, suggest anything we might think is helpful, rage a bit at the world and leave feeling like we have shouted into the void a bit. For me that works and I know we can send silly memes/pictures to lighten each other's days in between.

I feel I am quite a low maintenance friend though, which isn't for everyone. I have lost friends along the way who wanted me to read minds (which I see as game playing - most of us don't have time to ask probing questions constantly to make sure everyone we know is actually OK if they say they are, if you say you are fine I will assume you aren't lying). Sometimes it can take a while to unlearn some of those group behaviours that saved face in a group but make people hard to relate to 1:1.

I am a middle aged woman, I’m autistic so my experience might be skewed but I get on far better with the younger people in my workplace. The woman of my age form gaggle groups where they stand around and bitch about everyone and everything. It doesn’t interest me and a chat with the younger ones is far nicer, they tend to talk about stuff, talk, not moan, and very rarely is the subject of conversation someone else. Don’t get me wrong I realise I am being ageist here against my own age group but honestly some of these women who have worked there for decades are hideous. It’s a fucking supermarket and they act like they own the place and are superior becsue they have been there a long time. I hate that toxic level of people.

Thanks small lots of food for thought and I agree with much of what you say actually. I’m much better one on one too and they are also my real friends. I’ve struggled there too this year as one made it clear she couldn’t handle our issues (we had four hospital trips in a fortnight much to her horror. I didn’t lean on her at all but I was in deep despair and she said some odd things about my other child the same day so I basically let her friendship go),

my oldest uni friend has also pretty much stopped messaging - she is in a great and happy place and I haven’t managed to meet her for a long time due to DD who I can’t leave for long. To be fair she doesn’t know the true extent of the issues so I don’t blame her. I haven’t wanted to pull her down but equally did let her know of the struggles and why I had not been in touch much. She didn’t really reply.

but basically it’s been such a tough year and I’ve lost two close friends and now this.

I really really have worked out who my true friends are there and bizarrely it’s not been who I thought.

when this happens it’s really hard not just to (I) loathe yourself for not being likeable and (ii) not loathe everyone for being a bit crap! And this is where I think my mental health is utterly shot as I know that sounds batshit.

You sound lovely OP and I'm sorry you've had such a terrible year. It must have been very hard for you and your family.

As I've aged my friendship circle has expanded, changed and contracted naturally with lifes adventures and hard knocks. I'm in my sixties now and have three very small groups of friends. One is the core of my llife long friendship group...others have drifted off, moved away. Another is a group of three women I met at work about 20 years ago. Then I have two new friends I met through my sea swimming bluetits group.

I do different things with all three groups and it's rare the groups meet together/cross. Each little group is tight, supportive, loving and fun.

I would say that female friendships are one of the key comforts and joys of my life. That said it takes a lot of luck, 'curating' and time to hone the right people for you and this definitely ebbs and flows through life.

Real friends are a rock when life gets tough and if they aren't there for you they aren't the friends you need right now. If you create a space as you have and put yourself in the way of great new friendships they will come to you.

I hope your dear child goes on well.

It does sound like you need to fill your own cup a bit. From a practical perspective, is there anything you really do enjoy but haven't been able to do for a while? One of my friends and I did rollerskating for an hour before lunch one time and the exercise and then good food was memorably lifting - we were buzzing! I think having small things in the diary that can be looked forward to meeting core people and doing something silly/fun/different can be a nice way to be proactive and forward looking. I also enjoy borrowing and lending books with friends. Sometimes they guide my thinking and it gives you something else to discuss other than personal issues when you meet.

Everything feels like a balance because you are in a traumatic point of life - sounds like fright rather than fight or fawn, so do take time for the more simple things and don't worry about the details of these big groups and opinions of you from others. Easier said than done, I know!

I don't think true friends exist. I think people are selfish really.

I had 3 close friends in my 20's, and we did everything together. About 17 years into our friendship, I said I was leaving my H, due to his excessive cheating. Not one of my friends even called me. No one was interested. My SIL's, who I had been close to for 20 years, never spoke to me again. Ditto with my MIL. The friend who I was closest to decided that as I was leaving my H, she would dump me and pursue him sexually. Of course, they slept together, so that was that friendship ruined.

I made 2 new friends after that. And I let my guard down again. One was an alcoholic, and one day when she was off her face, I and her DH tried to get her daughter away from her - she accused me of having an affair with her DH (as if!), and the other woman attacked me on a night out, because a guy she fancied chatted me up.

After that I have only ever made "surface" friends. I don't get overly involved emotionally with anyone, except for my lovely (2nd) DH and my adult kids. I will never fully trust a woman again. It's easier this way. But even in this new friendship circle, there have been "events", one woman in particular is fucking batshit.

I’m sorry blonde. That’s rotten. I truly believe good friends exist but are hard to find. I don’t want to become bitter from my experiences which I know is easier said than done. Hopefully we can find peace

thanks small I have joined a local sports club this year and it’s been the highlight. I have met some lovely people. I deliberately keep my chat to small talk. They don’t really know me or my issues and it’s so lovely to escape it all.

i am just broken but I shall repair. We aren’t out the woods with my daughter yet - I am learning to live with that by which I mean that I know I might lose her one day which feels a heavy burden but acknowledging that helps me live day to day.

it’s true what a PP said. People are drawn to the fun and happy ones and I get it. I used to be that person! I’m generally very kind and really am there for people but I know it can’t always work in the reverse.

thanks dorset your post is lovely and a reminder of various ways friendships are picked up. It’s also comforting to hear friends can be made later and earlier.

Friendships do just move on. This one sounds more like a fun/social group with a handful of women in the group with a deeper emotional bond.
They aren't excluding or bullying you by not developing that with you. Most people have only a handful of 'real close friends' and you definitely won't get that from every social group.

With the eating disorder that's incredibly tough & few people will understand (people with severely ill kids with cancer & other serious physical illnesses also experience that so it's not rejecting you for stigma)

Have you looked at practical support groups either online or in person for the eating disorder carer aspect - There is one on here but I don't know how active it is - I used to get a lot of support & advice there but that's going back a few years.

Have you got a close friend that you can share that with & who will stick by you, family member etc?

I don't think you can expect every person you do social activities with to be there for really dark times. It can be a distraction but it's incredibly draining on a loose social group to have someone who expects more than it's able to give.

But male friendship is completely different. Men don't share personal problems with a group, only 2 or 3 maximum. They are also very flexible and inclusive with their friendship group. On more than one occasion I've found myself in friendship group with a person I really dislike but no one would know unless they specifically asked.

Its very rare for men to freeze another man out of a friendship group. I have been in a group thst did it once because the guy had become very 80s "loads of money " at a time when the rest of us were in school, college or apprenticeships.

Plus men can not see each other for 20 years and pick up immediately. Women would be questioning why its happened.

How often only here do we see women complaining or upset about friendships.

I think the ops right. Women are emotionally much more mature than men, except in the area of friends

Some of them just aren't into you.

But since some of them are, just stick with them.

No point in overthinking it.

I just spend time with people I like i cant be doing with all this drama and overthinking that seems to be on here daily, if somone ia hard work i dont spend time with them there is no conspiracy behind it, life is too short

I must admit I tend to stay away from hugely introspective people as they drain me.

I find myself trying to second guess how they're feeling/what they're thinking and who (if anyone) has upset them for no apparent reason.

I'm not saying the OP's like this, but I think more and more people are a bit like this nowadays.

To be fair to me, I have definitely not been a drain nor introspective with these people. Quite the reverse. I have kept expectations low. I def haven’t expected the help in dark times and most haven’t known. I have just been dumped after a very dark year and am struggling mentally.

Friendships do change as we age. When you are in 20s it's all fun and games, later you make Mum friends sometimes because of your kids . I am at an age where my circle is smaller but tighter . My best friend is mostly unavailable to me right now as she is dealing with her elderly parents , her support for her DD and DGD and her retired DH . But that is life . We do try to get together and I 'd like to think I am a support but don't know how much I can help .
When your DD was younger , playdates could help you out with childcare , etc. But what you are dealing with ATM is totally outside many people's understanding. They probably don't know what to say or do . Are there any support groups locally for women going through the same thing with their DCs . Knowing what's it like could be a new bond with someone.