To believe the team “Karen” isn’t misogynistic

[SummerAsh]

To start with… I don’t like the term. It can’t be pleasant if you are actually called Karen. And I don’t believe I’ve ever used it….

But I don’t see why it is misogynistic…. Unless someone says that all women are Karens. Some women are just insufferable, the same way some men are. Admitting this doesn’t make you misogynistic! And more than calling someone a Dick makes that person a misandrist.

Bandying the word “misogyny” around whenever anyone says anything that’s not completely complimentary about a woman just devalues the word, and makes it more difficult to call out real misogyny.

Dick, twat, cunt and arse are used for all sexes and ages. I think Karen is more like 'gammon' because it targets a particular type, age and race.

I agree with everyone that using Karen as a slur is misogynistic.

I do have to say that there are terms for many of these though as well @Modernschooling. What about "Mamils" Middle aged men in lucrative. Or "Manchild". I know neither have appropriate someone's actual name but they used as insults specifically toward men, the Mamil one is ageist too.

Worse than anything men could do? Really?

I hate it and have never used it.

Not the same.
The examples you give are naming specific behaviour that may or may not be shown by any man, they are not a caricature that bundles together a lot of traits and creates a stereotype which is then applied to a man of a certain age and appearance, regardless of his actual behaviour.
When we think of 'manbaby', how old is he? What does he look like? What is his ethnicity? What haircut does he have? Would anyone spot him and his friends on a train and say "There was this bunch of manbabies in my carriage" simply because they looked the way a manbaby looks?
Would we be actively looking for examples of his ineptitude because his appearance, age, ethnicity and haircut fit the manbaby stereotype?

Exactly. My kids and husband will put up with any old shit to avoid making a fuss. If I'm paying for something and it's not up to scratch then I will ask for it to be rectified, and if the person I'm dealing with can't do that, I will ask to speak to someone more senior. I do think the concept of a 'Karen' leans into the idea that wonen, especially middle aged ones, should shut up and put up.

That is true of so many labels now.

Passive aggressive often is used when the person means the person they are complaining about is not being entirely passive, narc typically gets flung out when someone is not doing what the name-caller wants them to do, gaslighting means saying something someone doesn't want to hear.

We live in a culture of names to shame and control others.

I don't approve of the use of Karen but think it is a wider thing than a purely misogynistic one. There are also male names used to belittle, like Wally.

Entirely missing the point of the post you’re replying to.

Yes, some women of a certain age (as with any other group in society) can be unreasonable, rude, demanding or batshit crazy.

But the labelling of it, in a way that definitely has no male equivalent, allows an entire demographic to be shut down and laughed at, regardless of what their opinions (or complaints) may be. Anything an older woman says, no matter how rational or justified, can be dismissed by applying this glib insult - and it definitely inhibits some of them from speaking up under certain circumstances, as has been discussed on here before.

It’s a very easy and potent way of forcing women to sit down and STFU. And is therefore deeply rooted in misogyny. HTH.

"Karen” began as a label for a particular kind of entitled behaviour, but it has increasingly become a way of mocking women for being assertive, complaining, or taking up social space. When a gendered insult does all that - and is largely accepted (how many women use it!) - there is a strong argument that it is misogynistic in my view

Yes, I think this is a good point about the original meaning and the usage - similar to what I was saying about terms like gaslighting.

They have a meaning but then get overly-liberally applied as a means to shut down and control inconvenient behaviour.

Case in point, I heard my dc's friend say "your mum is being a Karen" for making them wash their hands before lunch! That's not really within the original sphere of application! 😂

Exactly - gammon is the word used to insult older white males.

So like Karen for females, it's ageist, sexist, racist.

Yes. Gammon is the first and only male equivalent that's been suggested on the thread. Because it also stereotypes based on age and appearance. I hate the term too as its often classist.
However, I think its use is far more frowned upon than Karen. Most people clock it immediately as offensive and I don't hear it often. Usually only in response to extreme behaviour, politics or bigotry, rather than to someone complaining about cold food in a resturant or spotting a woman with a certain hair style, or similar, and casually dropped in the mainstream as a joke.

Not only is it misogynistic, it’s ageist and racist. Designed specifically to shut down middle aged white women who might have a “difficult” opinion.

Just another label to throw at women. Haven’t we got enough? Hag, crone, spinster, old maid, old biddy, slag, trollop, floozie, whore, slapper, tart, frigid, cocktease, cougar, witch, bird, bitch, bimbo, harpy, old bat, bag lady.

I’m shocked now I’ve listed them and that’s just what I can think of! Where are the male equivalents?

OK boomer is the nearest I can find that’s used for men as well as women. It’s similar because it generalises, assumes all people in a particular demographic are the same and dismisses them based on a characteristic.
think gammon is mainly used when a man is actually expressing a particular set of opinions, not when any man over 55 opens his mouth, although it can be based on appearance and social class.
It’s all linked to stereotyping people which is how isms start.
I think Karen is more widespread and not only used when someone is being obnoxious, it’s used to shut women up.

I think “Karen” is now used as a slur, the same way racist and homophobic slurs are used - to shut people up and remove their power.

If you wouldn’t be happy using a racist or homophobic slur, how can you happily use a sexist and ageist one?

And, just because you don’t agree with “Karen” being a misogynistic term, doesn’t mean it isn’t.

Its not used in that way though. Its used for insufferable women who complain about anything and making a nuisance out of themselves. I dont think its a big deal.

Absolutely call it out. Call out any kind of obnoxious behaviour for what it is.

But you weaken your argument calling them a Karen.
Especially as from this thread, people see Karen in different ways.

It is used in that way by some people.

you may not see it as a big deal but in the past there were loads of people who didn't think racist or homophobic slurs were a big deal.

Why don’t you understand that the reason the insult is called a ‘Karen’ is because that the assumption is that it’s women of a certain age who typically behave in that way?

OK, you crack on being offended on behalf of insufferable women. Whatever brings you joy and satisfaction.

Why do we need a special name to single out obnoxious women though? The behaviour you're describing is human behaviour rather than female behaviour. So why are we attaching a sex specific name to it rather than going with the gender neutral 'obnoxious' to describe gender neutral bad behaviour?

Doesn’t address my question but ok.

I use it all the time. My auntie Karen is absolutely a Karen. Doesn’t mean I don’t look up to her for speaking her mind. She’s fantastic, whether she’s just Karen or being a Karen. Does that make sense 🤣 I think of her every time cos she is the stereotype to a tee.

So why is there no male equivalent?

Surely noone is suggesting they have never seen a man behave like an absolute dick?

In fact, men can be physically threatening on top of the general rudeness

Exactly and its something noone has an answer for