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Kemi B - the best form of welfare is a well paying job...

633 replies

Oofftheflooff · 04/10/2026 09:18

She is absolutely right isn't she? Discussing the triple lock pension challenge and instead focusing on getting people into work. Do you agree with her ? Working 3 or 6 or 9 hours to then top up with benefits isn't the way forward (not including disabilities in here )

OP posts:
AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:48

Oofftheflooff · 05/10/2026 09:47

Can totally non working households, not from disability or caring responsibilities give their view ?

They’re not here. They don’t tend to hang out on Mumsnet which is quite a middle class website.

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:49

TopPocketFind · 05/10/2026 09:45

You haven't thought this through, have you

Sadly I have. I think the rights of babies to not be born to be addicted to drugs and neglected comes before the mother’s right to keep having babies despite the fact she can’t care for or support them.

Oofftheflooff · 05/10/2026 09:49

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:48

They’re not here. They don’t tend to hang out on Mumsnet which is quite a middle class website.

Some of them must do.... genuinely curious

OP posts:
5128gap · 05/10/2026 09:57

Oofftheflooff · 05/10/2026 09:46

Going to say something really controversial and I know it would never be implemented as we are not China. We have a household income just above 50k and we couldn't afford to have more than 1 child. I think if you are a 2nd generation non working household you should not be allowed to have more than 1 child as you won't work and cost a fortune. If working households cant afford more kids so should non working. And if you dont comply you dont get your benefits....done

Edited

There isn't any point in suggestions that can't be implemented though, is there? And how in a society that would not adopt draconian human rights breeches such as forced sterilisation, can people be prevented from having children?
Punative measures after the fact, such as refusing benefits may act as some deterrent but are unlikely to eradicate the problem, because we will still have accidental pregnancy and pregnancies that occur during better times, that later become unaffordable.
Any reduction in income creates greater child poverty, and there are multiple studies showing that one of the worst things we can do as a society is raise children in poverty.
I've at times wondered about the feasibility of making it a criminal offence for a man to impregnate a woman without the means to support the child though. Too far..?

TopPocketFind · 05/10/2026 09:57

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:49

Sadly I have. I think the rights of babies to not be born to be addicted to drugs and neglected comes before the mother’s right to keep having babies despite the fact she can’t care for or support them.

You could try reading up on how your suggestions were applied in the past.

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:58

5128gap · 05/10/2026 09:57

There isn't any point in suggestions that can't be implemented though, is there? And how in a society that would not adopt draconian human rights breeches such as forced sterilisation, can people be prevented from having children?
Punative measures after the fact, such as refusing benefits may act as some deterrent but are unlikely to eradicate the problem, because we will still have accidental pregnancy and pregnancies that occur during better times, that later become unaffordable.
Any reduction in income creates greater child poverty, and there are multiple studies showing that one of the worst things we can do as a society is raise children in poverty.
I've at times wondered about the feasibility of making it a criminal offence for a man to impregnate a woman without the means to support the child though. Too far..?

But if you compare now to (eg) 1850, we ‘support’ people beyond their wildest dreams with money, education, healthcare… it’s made fuck all difference. People are unhealthier, more feckless and unhinged than ever. All we do is throw money into a bottomless pit. They don’t respect education, they don’t respect their health. They have no personal responsibility whatsoever.

AFigureWalks · 05/10/2026 09:59

She is right, but how do all the minimum wage jobs fit into this?
How can we protect our young people and NEETS from this and give them a well paying job?
It is easy to say, but not so easy to solve.
Not impressed with her stating the obvious.

randomchap · 05/10/2026 10:08

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:58

But if you compare now to (eg) 1850, we ‘support’ people beyond their wildest dreams with money, education, healthcare… it’s made fuck all difference. People are unhealthier, more feckless and unhinged than ever. All we do is throw money into a bottomless pit. They don’t respect education, they don’t respect their health. They have no personal responsibility whatsoever.

Edited

In 1850 about 64% of adults could read, now it's almost universal.

Life expectancy at birth about 42 in 1850, now almost doubled to 81

15% of children died before the age of 5 in 1850, now less than 0.5%

"Fuck all difference"? My arse

5128gap · 05/10/2026 10:14

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:45

I’m all for early support. But trying to support people past the age of 16 is about as effective as a chocolate teapot.

Where is your evidence for that? What assessments of post 16 support services have you conducted to come to that conclusion? What support was provided, and what were the outcomes compared with the control group?
Do you believe all mentoring, training, therapies physical and mental, guidance is pointless if provided to those over 16? If so, where is your evidence?

pointythings · 05/10/2026 10:21

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:45

I’m all for early support. But trying to support people past the age of 16 is about as effective as a chocolate teapot.

The Dutch experience in reducing the % of NEETs suggests you are completely wrong.

Havanananana · 05/10/2026 10:29

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 08:35

I think he’s misinterpreted the whole thing.

We’ve discovered intensive hand holding leads to useless adults who need more and more ‘support’ to do the most basic things.

It hasn’t worked. The proof is all around you.

His analysis is spot on.

Badenoch acknowleges that 14 years of Conservative austerity and mis-management has severely damaged the UK economy and yet all she can come up with is "more of the same- but this time harder" as if that would result in a different outcome.

She is just doing some performative politics, like Truss before her trying to evoke the spirit of Thatcher in an attempt to grab a few headlines. The Conservatives are hoping that people have forgotten that it was Thatcher who started the process to dismantle the public services, destroy the post-war collectivism, rip up the social contract and place the country into the hands of the capitalists and rentiers. She gave away the public utilities, spaffed the North Sea oil revenues on tax cuts for her chums in industry, and stole the council houses. She decided that the UK should focus on services rather than on manufacturing. The people who thought that they were being clever by buying into this are the same people who 40 years down the line are complaining that their children can't afford a house, that their utility bills are unaffordable and that the rivers are full of shit, and that there are no jobs for the youngsters.

She also knows that it is easy to lob grenades at Labour and Burnham as long as she does not actually have to enact any policies herself. She seems to think that she will be the next PM. Even if there is a right-wing majority in Parliament, she would probably have to work with Farage, Jenrick, Braverman and possibly Lowe, people who she dislikes and who have openly criticised her in the past.

She's strangely quiet about Brexit though. The Conservative Brexit that has cost every person the equivalent of £3,000 a year so far and that continues to hold back the country.

angelos02 · 05/10/2026 10:40

Look after yourself. Want a kid, you pay for it, want a holiday, you pay for it, want a home, you pay for it. Stop looking for someone else to pay for you. Do it yourself. Not complicated really.

randomchap · 05/10/2026 10:46

angelos02 · 05/10/2026 10:40

Look after yourself. Want a kid, you pay for it, want a holiday, you pay for it, want a home, you pay for it. Stop looking for someone else to pay for you. Do it yourself. Not complicated really.

And if you're unable to work? Starve to death on the streets?

Zzxzzz · 05/10/2026 10:50

angelos02 · 05/10/2026 10:40

Look after yourself. Want a kid, you pay for it, want a holiday, you pay for it, want a home, you pay for it. Stop looking for someone else to pay for you. Do it yourself. Not complicated really.

I believe in this but I can't blame disabled people or those with disabled kids

5128gap · 05/10/2026 10:51

angelos02 · 05/10/2026 10:40

Look after yourself. Want a kid, you pay for it, want a holiday, you pay for it, want a home, you pay for it. Stop looking for someone else to pay for you. Do it yourself. Not complicated really.

It will probably get a bit more complicated when the expensive areas of the country have no carers, retail or service staff or anyone working in the lower levels of the NHS, education, nurseries, charities and so on because they can't pay for a house. And when the birth rate drops dramatically in less well off demographics meaning less future labour and fewer future tax payers.

Zzxzzz · 05/10/2026 10:54

Like if someone has cancer what do you expect? If they have a degenerative nerve disorder. You can't will yourself out of it. It's impossible.

notmoredirtywashing · 05/10/2026 10:58

@Havanananana

thank you for this analysis.

I have a young adult son still living at home and can’t get a job anywhere! He applies for entry level jobs constantly and rarely even get a reply.

easy to say “get a job” when there are hardly any out there.

Havanananana · 05/10/2026 11:10

angelos02 · 05/10/2026 10:40

Look after yourself. Want a kid, you pay for it, want a holiday, you pay for it, want a home, you pay for it. Stop looking for someone else to pay for you. Do it yourself. Not complicated really.

Don't get ill or have an accident or injury. Don't be poor. Don't lose your job or your house. Don't let your skills be replaced by a robot or by someone in a far-off country paid one-tenth of what you were paid.

5128gap · 05/10/2026 11:23

BIossomtoes · 05/10/2026 08:33

Interesting analysis from Richard Murphy in my inbox this morning.

Kemi Badenoch’s The Right Way, published yesterday to mark the start of the otherwise neatly irrelevant Tory party conference, matters because it is not really a manifesto. It is an attempt to recreate the intellectual foundations of Conservatism, rather as The Right Approach, written by Hayekian Sir Keith Joseph, did before Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979.

Badenoch explicitly argues that principle must come before policy.

Her singular principle is clear and is that government is more often the problem than the solution. Business creates growth, she says, and government does not. The state should therefore tax less, spend less, borrow less, regulate less and interfere less. As a result, she argues that individuals, families, communities and businesses should instead take more responsibility for what happens in society.

That thinking runs throughout the document. Employment rights are presented as impediments to hiring. Regulation supposedly suppresses enterprise. Public ownership is rejected in favour of private ownership and competition. Net Zero is portrayed as an economic burden. Badenoch says the state should withdraw from large parts of economic life. Instead, markets, businesses and individuals should determine economic outcomes.

At the same time, The Right Way is not an argument for a weak state. Badenoch wants a state that does less economically but exercises considerably more power in other areas. This is particularly apparent with regard to policing, borders, immigration, and national identity. The Conservatives propose leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, repealing the Human Rights Act, dramatically increasing removals of people with a previously established legal right to reside in the UK, and restricting legal migration.

There is, then, a marked paradox in this document. It offers a vision of a state that is weak when confronting economic power but strong when exercising power over people.

But what interests me most about The Right Way is not what it says. As I learned long ago, what is important in any document of this sort is what it does not say.
The whole argument Badenoch claims to present depends upon assumptions that are barely acknowledged. Most especially, if individuals are to take greater responsibility for their own lives, they must have the means to do so. People cannot exercise meaningful responsibility without secure incomes, decent employment, affordable housing, healthcare, education, reliable transport, affordable energy, reliable and affordable access to legal redress, and some protection against the risks that none of us can reasonably manage by ourselves. Those things do not simply appear because government gets out of the way. The document seems to assume they do, leaving a gaping hole in what it has to say.

The document also says remarkably little about power. A market economy does not consist of millions of people meeting each other as equals and freely agreeing mutually advantageous bargains, as the theory of perfect competition, which Badenoch appears to have absorbed as if it is a universal truth, might like to suggest. Some people own companies, land, and property and have substantial financial wealth. Others depend solely upon selling their labour to whoever they can to survive. Employers usually have more bargaining power than individual employees. Landlords frequently have more power than tenants. Large corporations can exercise enormous influence over consumers, workers and even governments. Asymmetry is everywhere. The paper ignores that fact.

If employment protection is reduced, regulation removed and government withdraws, as The Right Way argues it should, then this paper assumes that this unequal distribution of power will somehow produce socially desirable outcomes. But why should it?

The same problem arises with markets themselves. Markets allocate resources according to purchasing power, not need. In a market environment, someone’s desperate need for a home does not create effective market demand unless they have enough money to pay the rent or mortgage. The same is true of food, energy, healthcare, social care and almost every other essential requirement for a decent life. In that case, if government retreats from responsibility, someone still has to suggest what happens to those whose needs the market cannot profitably meet? The Right Way does not even try to offer an adequate answer.

These failings being noted, there is another, even bigger assumption hidden within Badenoch’s argument. Her model requires extraordinarily strong families and communities to compensate for the retreat of the state. Families must not only exist, but they must have the time, money and emotional resources to provide care. Simultaneously, communities must have institutions capable of supporting people, and charities and voluntary organisations must somehow fill gaps. The work of care does not go away if the state retreats from providing it. Others must do so instead. The possibility that others may not be able to do so is a possibility not discussed in Badenoch’s ideal world.

Likewise, it is assumed that employers will behave responsibly even when employment protection is weakened, contrary to the summary expectation that they will profit-maximise, whilst it is also assumed that businesses supplying essential goods and services will refrain from exploiting their market power, contrary to all observed experience in both cases.

In other words, a political programme built around individual responsibility depends upon an enormous amount of collective responsibility continuing to exist somewhere else. The question of where that might come from in a world where it is assumed that individual responsibility is each person’s priority to the exclusion of all else is never addressed.

There is also a fundamental problem with the concept of freedom being used here. Freedom is implicitly understood as freedom from government: freedom from tax, regulation and state interference. But that is only one form of freedom. A person who cannot afford their rent is not meaningfully free. Someone frightened of losing their job because they have no savings has very limited choices. A person unable to obtain healthcare is not liberated by lower taxes. Someone unable to heat their home does not gain much freedom from deregulation. Real freedom requires resources. It requires security. Above all, it requires genuine choices.

Freedom from something does not necessarily provide the freedom to do anything else. The Right Way does not come close to recognising that. That is why the most important question raised by The Right Way is one that it does not answer: Badenoch explains at considerable length what she thinks people should be responsible for. She says much less about what people require if they are to have the capacity to exercise that responsibility.

That said, Badenoch acknowledges that Conservative governments between 2010 and 2024 failed. That is a truth almost universally acknowledged now as a consequence, but what she argues is that, despite the dire cast of characters involved in all those governments, herself, Liz Truss and Boris Johnson included, they failed because they were insufficiently Conservative. The proposed answer is therefore not less reliance upon markets, individual responsibility and private enterprise, but considerably more.

It is this fact that makes the missing assumptions that I note especially important. For the model Badenoch proposes to work, it must be assumed, or be evidentially clear, that markets generally produce socially desirable outcomes. In other words:
businesses must behave responsibly;
employers must treat employees fairly despite having greater bargaining power;
private providers must supply essential services to those who need them;
families must be able to absorb risks previously shared collectively;
communities must compensate for a retreating state;
wealth and economic power must somehow not translate into political and social domination; and
those who cannot succeed in the market must somehow still have the resources required to live with dignity.

None of those outcomes can be assumed to follow automatically from shrinking government because there is no evidence from anywhere at any time that these are solutions that markets promote. There is, then, a profound difference between saying that people should stand on their own feet and ensuring that they have firm ground on which to stand.

The political argument we need to have now is about who provides that firm ground. The Right Way assumes that markets, families and individual responsibility will do so. I think that assumption is the most important thing in the entire document, and it is precisely what needs to be challenged, because there is not a shred of evidence to support that claim.

Thanks for reading The Politics of Care

This is an interesting and insightful analysis.
I have to say, while not a fan, I had Badenoch down as a more nuanced and pragmatic thinker than appears to be the case. The Right Way is the work of a naive right wing ideologue, more reflective of an ardent member of the young Conservatives than of a woman who wants us to believe she has a workable plan.

Zzxzzz · 05/10/2026 11:46

notmoredirtywashing · 05/10/2026 10:58

@Havanananana

thank you for this analysis.

I have a young adult son still living at home and can’t get a job anywhere! He applies for entry level jobs constantly and rarely even get a reply.

easy to say “get a job” when there are hardly any out there.

Online tutoring. Even in person tutoring.

MasterGland · 05/10/2026 11:47

I think we're just entering the difficult transition period between the era of universal work and whatever comes next. Depending upon your personal view, what comes next are halcyon days of increasing plenty provided by automation or some sort of Mad Max style social breakdown.
Whatever the final destination, there will be increasingly fewer paid jobs. We need to start some radical thinking about what sort of society we want because I think there will be very different approaches taken to this around the world.

JHound · 05/10/2026 11:48

Oofftheflooff · 04/10/2026 09:18

She is absolutely right isn't she? Discussing the triple lock pension challenge and instead focusing on getting people into work. Do you agree with her ? Working 3 or 6 or 9 hours to then top up with benefits isn't the way forward (not including disabilities in here )

I agree with this but the question is how to force businesses to pay workers properly instead of relying on corporate welfare.

Zzxzzz · 05/10/2026 12:01

JHound · 05/10/2026 11:48

I agree with this but the question is how to force businesses to pay workers properly instead of relying on corporate welfare.

If you don't provide the welfare itself then maybe the labour market bargaining position changes.

Anyhow you also need to look at the profit margins these companies are making..... Retail is razor thing, how are they magically going to pay everyone more. Is the pay actually that bad?

At some point aren't people expected to budget accordingly and live within their means?

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 12:01

JHound · 05/10/2026 11:48

I agree with this but the question is how to force businesses to pay workers properly instead of relying on corporate welfare.

They can’t. Let’s say we increase the NMW. Prices would just rise accordingly. It would be meaningless.

TopPocketFind · 05/10/2026 12:09

Zzxzzz · 05/10/2026 11:46

Online tutoring. Even in person tutoring.

Is that the new 'take in ironing' suggestion?