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Kemi B - the best form of welfare is a well paying job...

633 replies

Oofftheflooff · 04/10/2026 09:18

She is absolutely right isn't she? Discussing the triple lock pension challenge and instead focusing on getting people into work. Do you agree with her ? Working 3 or 6 or 9 hours to then top up with benefits isn't the way forward (not including disabilities in here )

OP posts:
MrsBennetsPoorNervesAreBack · 05/10/2026 07:36

The Tories spent 14 years in power.

During that time, they trashed our education system and let down an entire generation of young people.

They trashed the NHS, leaving people unable to get the support that they need with their physical and mental health.

And they trashed our economy by giving us Brexit.

But they think everyone should just be able to walk into well paying jobs regardless?

We do need to get more people into work, absolutely. But it is going to take time to fix the mess that the Tories left behind. Until that time, many people are going to need support from the state.

Clonakilla · 05/10/2026 07:41

HushTheNoise · 04/10/2026 09:36

It should be possible for a parent to stay at home at least part time to bring up their children if they want to. Far better for ( most) parents to bring up their children than the state. Work should pay well and allow for flexibility. Early intervention should focus on families who are struggling with young children and support them to be better parents at an early stage , this needs investment. It would help reduce antisocial behaviour in later years. Work is important but so is healthy family life.

When people post bullshit like this I always wonder if the working partner they’re living off knows the contempt they have for him or her. You don’t think the working parent who bankrolls the entire family whilst the other parent stays home is bringing up their children? Have you said so to your partner’s face?

Working parents bring up their children. They just don’t absolve themselves from the key parenting responsibility of financially supporting their children. Ironically the ‘state bringing up children’ is what happens when parents elect not to take that financial responsibility that’s inherent to parenting, and expect the state to step in.

BitOutOfPractice · 05/10/2026 07:43

cityliving99 · 04/10/2026 21:00

Too bad it was even worse in the Blair/ Brown era and rapidly declining right now.

What you mean that time that was Britain’s longest period of continuous growth? That one?

5128gap · 05/10/2026 07:47

randomchap · 04/10/2026 23:03

If Badenoch wants everyone to have a well paid job, then who is going to do the poorly paid jobs that society relies on?

I'm not convinced she's thought this through. It may just be a meaningless soundbite. Shocking that the Tory party has come to this.

Its the Tory lie rolled out again, isn't it? Everyone can be well paid, wealthy and successful if only they work hard enough. The whole capitalist model hinges on enough people believing it so we keep grafting, just as it depends on it never being true because without the army of low paid grafters it all falls apart.
Capitalist society can only function when workers are paid less than their labour is worth to allow for the profit.
Its a fact of life and we're so embedded in it, there isn't a way out, but I'm sick of successive Tories trying to pretend it's not the case, peddling false hope, then telling people it's their own fault when their highly paid job doesn't materialise.

BIossomtoes · 05/10/2026 08:33

Interesting analysis from Richard Murphy in my inbox this morning.

Kemi Badenoch’s The Right Way, published yesterday to mark the start of the otherwise neatly irrelevant Tory party conference, matters because it is not really a manifesto. It is an attempt to recreate the intellectual foundations of Conservatism, rather as The Right Approach, written by Hayekian Sir Keith Joseph, did before Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979.

Badenoch explicitly argues that principle must come before policy.

Her singular principle is clear and is that government is more often the problem than the solution. Business creates growth, she says, and government does not. The state should therefore tax less, spend less, borrow less, regulate less and interfere less. As a result, she argues that individuals, families, communities and businesses should instead take more responsibility for what happens in society.

That thinking runs throughout the document. Employment rights are presented as impediments to hiring. Regulation supposedly suppresses enterprise. Public ownership is rejected in favour of private ownership and competition. Net Zero is portrayed as an economic burden. Badenoch says the state should withdraw from large parts of economic life. Instead, markets, businesses and individuals should determine economic outcomes.

At the same time, The Right Way is not an argument for a weak state. Badenoch wants a state that does less economically but exercises considerably more power in other areas. This is particularly apparent with regard to policing, borders, immigration, and national identity. The Conservatives propose leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, repealing the Human Rights Act, dramatically increasing removals of people with a previously established legal right to reside in the UK, and restricting legal migration.

There is, then, a marked paradox in this document. It offers a vision of a state that is weak when confronting economic power but strong when exercising power over people.

But what interests me most about The Right Way is not what it says. As I learned long ago, what is important in any document of this sort is what it does not say.
The whole argument Badenoch claims to present depends upon assumptions that are barely acknowledged. Most especially, if individuals are to take greater responsibility for their own lives, they must have the means to do so. People cannot exercise meaningful responsibility without secure incomes, decent employment, affordable housing, healthcare, education, reliable transport, affordable energy, reliable and affordable access to legal redress, and some protection against the risks that none of us can reasonably manage by ourselves. Those things do not simply appear because government gets out of the way. The document seems to assume they do, leaving a gaping hole in what it has to say.

The document also says remarkably little about power. A market economy does not consist of millions of people meeting each other as equals and freely agreeing mutually advantageous bargains, as the theory of perfect competition, which Badenoch appears to have absorbed as if it is a universal truth, might like to suggest. Some people own companies, land, and property and have substantial financial wealth. Others depend solely upon selling their labour to whoever they can to survive. Employers usually have more bargaining power than individual employees. Landlords frequently have more power than tenants. Large corporations can exercise enormous influence over consumers, workers and even governments. Asymmetry is everywhere. The paper ignores that fact.

If employment protection is reduced, regulation removed and government withdraws, as The Right Way argues it should, then this paper assumes that this unequal distribution of power will somehow produce socially desirable outcomes. But why should it?

The same problem arises with markets themselves. Markets allocate resources according to purchasing power, not need. In a market environment, someone’s desperate need for a home does not create effective market demand unless they have enough money to pay the rent or mortgage. The same is true of food, energy, healthcare, social care and almost every other essential requirement for a decent life. In that case, if government retreats from responsibility, someone still has to suggest what happens to those whose needs the market cannot profitably meet? The Right Way does not even try to offer an adequate answer.

These failings being noted, there is another, even bigger assumption hidden within Badenoch’s argument. Her model requires extraordinarily strong families and communities to compensate for the retreat of the state. Families must not only exist, but they must have the time, money and emotional resources to provide care. Simultaneously, communities must have institutions capable of supporting people, and charities and voluntary organisations must somehow fill gaps. The work of care does not go away if the state retreats from providing it. Others must do so instead. The possibility that others may not be able to do so is a possibility not discussed in Badenoch’s ideal world.

Likewise, it is assumed that employers will behave responsibly even when employment protection is weakened, contrary to the summary expectation that they will profit-maximise, whilst it is also assumed that businesses supplying essential goods and services will refrain from exploiting their market power, contrary to all observed experience in both cases.

In other words, a political programme built around individual responsibility depends upon an enormous amount of collective responsibility continuing to exist somewhere else. The question of where that might come from in a world where it is assumed that individual responsibility is each person’s priority to the exclusion of all else is never addressed.

There is also a fundamental problem with the concept of freedom being used here. Freedom is implicitly understood as freedom from government: freedom from tax, regulation and state interference. But that is only one form of freedom. A person who cannot afford their rent is not meaningfully free. Someone frightened of losing their job because they have no savings has very limited choices. A person unable to obtain healthcare is not liberated by lower taxes. Someone unable to heat their home does not gain much freedom from deregulation. Real freedom requires resources. It requires security. Above all, it requires genuine choices.

Freedom from something does not necessarily provide the freedom to do anything else. The Right Way does not come close to recognising that. That is why the most important question raised by The Right Way is one that it does not answer: Badenoch explains at considerable length what she thinks people should be responsible for. She says much less about what people require if they are to have the capacity to exercise that responsibility.

That said, Badenoch acknowledges that Conservative governments between 2010 and 2024 failed. That is a truth almost universally acknowledged now as a consequence, but what she argues is that, despite the dire cast of characters involved in all those governments, herself, Liz Truss and Boris Johnson included, they failed because they were insufficiently Conservative. The proposed answer is therefore not less reliance upon markets, individual responsibility and private enterprise, but considerably more.

It is this fact that makes the missing assumptions that I note especially important. For the model Badenoch proposes to work, it must be assumed, or be evidentially clear, that markets generally produce socially desirable outcomes. In other words:
businesses must behave responsibly;
employers must treat employees fairly despite having greater bargaining power;
private providers must supply essential services to those who need them;
families must be able to absorb risks previously shared collectively;
communities must compensate for a retreating state;
wealth and economic power must somehow not translate into political and social domination; and
those who cannot succeed in the market must somehow still have the resources required to live with dignity.

None of those outcomes can be assumed to follow automatically from shrinking government because there is no evidence from anywhere at any time that these are solutions that markets promote. There is, then, a profound difference between saying that people should stand on their own feet and ensuring that they have firm ground on which to stand.

The political argument we need to have now is about who provides that firm ground. The Right Way assumes that markets, families and individual responsibility will do so. I think that assumption is the most important thing in the entire document, and it is precisely what needs to be challenged, because there is not a shred of evidence to support that claim.

Thanks for reading The Politics of Care

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 08:35

BIossomtoes · 05/10/2026 08:33

Interesting analysis from Richard Murphy in my inbox this morning.

Kemi Badenoch’s The Right Way, published yesterday to mark the start of the otherwise neatly irrelevant Tory party conference, matters because it is not really a manifesto. It is an attempt to recreate the intellectual foundations of Conservatism, rather as The Right Approach, written by Hayekian Sir Keith Joseph, did before Margaret Thatcher came to power in 1979.

Badenoch explicitly argues that principle must come before policy.

Her singular principle is clear and is that government is more often the problem than the solution. Business creates growth, she says, and government does not. The state should therefore tax less, spend less, borrow less, regulate less and interfere less. As a result, she argues that individuals, families, communities and businesses should instead take more responsibility for what happens in society.

That thinking runs throughout the document. Employment rights are presented as impediments to hiring. Regulation supposedly suppresses enterprise. Public ownership is rejected in favour of private ownership and competition. Net Zero is portrayed as an economic burden. Badenoch says the state should withdraw from large parts of economic life. Instead, markets, businesses and individuals should determine economic outcomes.

At the same time, The Right Way is not an argument for a weak state. Badenoch wants a state that does less economically but exercises considerably more power in other areas. This is particularly apparent with regard to policing, borders, immigration, and national identity. The Conservatives propose leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, repealing the Human Rights Act, dramatically increasing removals of people with a previously established legal right to reside in the UK, and restricting legal migration.

There is, then, a marked paradox in this document. It offers a vision of a state that is weak when confronting economic power but strong when exercising power over people.

But what interests me most about The Right Way is not what it says. As I learned long ago, what is important in any document of this sort is what it does not say.
The whole argument Badenoch claims to present depends upon assumptions that are barely acknowledged. Most especially, if individuals are to take greater responsibility for their own lives, they must have the means to do so. People cannot exercise meaningful responsibility without secure incomes, decent employment, affordable housing, healthcare, education, reliable transport, affordable energy, reliable and affordable access to legal redress, and some protection against the risks that none of us can reasonably manage by ourselves. Those things do not simply appear because government gets out of the way. The document seems to assume they do, leaving a gaping hole in what it has to say.

The document also says remarkably little about power. A market economy does not consist of millions of people meeting each other as equals and freely agreeing mutually advantageous bargains, as the theory of perfect competition, which Badenoch appears to have absorbed as if it is a universal truth, might like to suggest. Some people own companies, land, and property and have substantial financial wealth. Others depend solely upon selling their labour to whoever they can to survive. Employers usually have more bargaining power than individual employees. Landlords frequently have more power than tenants. Large corporations can exercise enormous influence over consumers, workers and even governments. Asymmetry is everywhere. The paper ignores that fact.

If employment protection is reduced, regulation removed and government withdraws, as The Right Way argues it should, then this paper assumes that this unequal distribution of power will somehow produce socially desirable outcomes. But why should it?

The same problem arises with markets themselves. Markets allocate resources according to purchasing power, not need. In a market environment, someone’s desperate need for a home does not create effective market demand unless they have enough money to pay the rent or mortgage. The same is true of food, energy, healthcare, social care and almost every other essential requirement for a decent life. In that case, if government retreats from responsibility, someone still has to suggest what happens to those whose needs the market cannot profitably meet? The Right Way does not even try to offer an adequate answer.

These failings being noted, there is another, even bigger assumption hidden within Badenoch’s argument. Her model requires extraordinarily strong families and communities to compensate for the retreat of the state. Families must not only exist, but they must have the time, money and emotional resources to provide care. Simultaneously, communities must have institutions capable of supporting people, and charities and voluntary organisations must somehow fill gaps. The work of care does not go away if the state retreats from providing it. Others must do so instead. The possibility that others may not be able to do so is a possibility not discussed in Badenoch’s ideal world.

Likewise, it is assumed that employers will behave responsibly even when employment protection is weakened, contrary to the summary expectation that they will profit-maximise, whilst it is also assumed that businesses supplying essential goods and services will refrain from exploiting their market power, contrary to all observed experience in both cases.

In other words, a political programme built around individual responsibility depends upon an enormous amount of collective responsibility continuing to exist somewhere else. The question of where that might come from in a world where it is assumed that individual responsibility is each person’s priority to the exclusion of all else is never addressed.

There is also a fundamental problem with the concept of freedom being used here. Freedom is implicitly understood as freedom from government: freedom from tax, regulation and state interference. But that is only one form of freedom. A person who cannot afford their rent is not meaningfully free. Someone frightened of losing their job because they have no savings has very limited choices. A person unable to obtain healthcare is not liberated by lower taxes. Someone unable to heat their home does not gain much freedom from deregulation. Real freedom requires resources. It requires security. Above all, it requires genuine choices.

Freedom from something does not necessarily provide the freedom to do anything else. The Right Way does not come close to recognising that. That is why the most important question raised by The Right Way is one that it does not answer: Badenoch explains at considerable length what she thinks people should be responsible for. She says much less about what people require if they are to have the capacity to exercise that responsibility.

That said, Badenoch acknowledges that Conservative governments between 2010 and 2024 failed. That is a truth almost universally acknowledged now as a consequence, but what she argues is that, despite the dire cast of characters involved in all those governments, herself, Liz Truss and Boris Johnson included, they failed because they were insufficiently Conservative. The proposed answer is therefore not less reliance upon markets, individual responsibility and private enterprise, but considerably more.

It is this fact that makes the missing assumptions that I note especially important. For the model Badenoch proposes to work, it must be assumed, or be evidentially clear, that markets generally produce socially desirable outcomes. In other words:
businesses must behave responsibly;
employers must treat employees fairly despite having greater bargaining power;
private providers must supply essential services to those who need them;
families must be able to absorb risks previously shared collectively;
communities must compensate for a retreating state;
wealth and economic power must somehow not translate into political and social domination; and
those who cannot succeed in the market must somehow still have the resources required to live with dignity.

None of those outcomes can be assumed to follow automatically from shrinking government because there is no evidence from anywhere at any time that these are solutions that markets promote. There is, then, a profound difference between saying that people should stand on their own feet and ensuring that they have firm ground on which to stand.

The political argument we need to have now is about who provides that firm ground. The Right Way assumes that markets, families and individual responsibility will do so. I think that assumption is the most important thing in the entire document, and it is precisely what needs to be challenged, because there is not a shred of evidence to support that claim.

Thanks for reading The Politics of Care

I think he’s misinterpreted the whole thing.

We’ve discovered intensive hand holding leads to useless adults who need more and more ‘support’ to do the most basic things.

It hasn’t worked. The proof is all around you.

NotSmallButFunSize · 05/10/2026 08:38

TheFairyCaravan · 04/10/2026 09:46

Yet so many public sector jobs are so badly paid that they need to be topped up by UC. Soldiers, teachers, nurses, other hospital staff, prison officers all can’t make ends meet on their pay alone. When Keir Starmer became PM and gave these people pay rises (DS1 got the biggest one of his career) Kemi Badenoch kicked off about it. She can’t have it both ways.

Exactly - they didn't exactly give much of a shit about making my NHS job "well paying" when they were in a position to do something about it.

Yes Kemi, I would love one thanks! When's the pay review coming to address the last 10 years (and more!) that our wages fell behind in real terms?

PortiaRose · 05/10/2026 08:39

Whisperwaves · 04/10/2026 09:41

Lots of retail jobs for example only offer short hour contracts. Where are all these high paying full time jobs going to come from?

What is a "full time job" nowadays? Do you work weekends? Do you work Fridays?

IzzyLeng · 05/10/2026 08:46

PortiaRose · 05/10/2026 08:39

What is a "full time job" nowadays? Do you work weekends? Do you work Fridays?

I think full time refers to amount of hours over the week rather than specific days. I have a full time job, my contract says so - 37.5 hrs a week. I don’t work weekends but I’m still full time.

Zzxzzz · 05/10/2026 08:46

There have been many MNers who say they can't work due to ADHD or ASD or both or MH or anxiety but seem to be able to talk on MN everyday

Echobelly · 05/10/2026 08:56

Zzxzzz · 05/10/2026 08:46

There have been many MNers who say they can't work due to ADHD or ASD or both or MH or anxiety but seem to be able to talk on MN everyday

Because obviously posting on MN intermittently is the same as doing a job for 7-8 hours a day.

Nb, everyone I know who has gone for a diagnosis of ASD or ADHD, including my husband, has done so to help them stay in work.

foursquares · 05/10/2026 09:00

Oofftheflooff · 04/10/2026 09:18

She is absolutely right isn't she? Discussing the triple lock pension challenge and instead focusing on getting people into work. Do you agree with her ? Working 3 or 6 or 9 hours to then top up with benefits isn't the way forward (not including disabilities in here )

Guess you missed Econ 101...

5128gap · 05/10/2026 09:23

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 08:35

I think he’s misinterpreted the whole thing.

We’ve discovered intensive hand holding leads to useless adults who need more and more ‘support’ to do the most basic things.

It hasn’t worked. The proof is all around you.

Are you suggesting that the last two decades have been characterised by 'intensive hand holding'? Because what I've seen is an erosion of support.
Benefits have become less generous and more difficult to claim.
Mental health services and community care have dwindled away to nothing.
Higher education, dentistry, eye care, prescriptions, immunisations, podiatry are left for individuals to purchase if they are able.
We have lost libraries, sports facilities, swimming pools, transport subsidies and youth centres.
Local authorities no longer offer social housing other than to those in the most dire need. They no longer provide neighbourhood advice services, and what happened to Sure Start?
Health visitors no longer visit. My grandson has had one home visit and one clinic appointment in three years. When his mother was born in the 90s, I had the midwife every day for a week, followed by weekly HV home visits, then fortnightly clinic appointments.
If you seriously want to argue that the root of our problems is too much support, then you need to demonstrate this with reference to a period of high support. Because looking at where we are now in the context of the reduced support we have seen, points to the opposite.

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:25

5128gap · 05/10/2026 09:23

Are you suggesting that the last two decades have been characterised by 'intensive hand holding'? Because what I've seen is an erosion of support.
Benefits have become less generous and more difficult to claim.
Mental health services and community care have dwindled away to nothing.
Higher education, dentistry, eye care, prescriptions, immunisations, podiatry are left for individuals to purchase if they are able.
We have lost libraries, sports facilities, swimming pools, transport subsidies and youth centres.
Local authorities no longer offer social housing other than to those in the most dire need. They no longer provide neighbourhood advice services, and what happened to Sure Start?
Health visitors no longer visit. My grandson has had one home visit and one clinic appointment in three years. When his mother was born in the 90s, I had the midwife every day for a week, followed by weekly HV home visits, then fortnightly clinic appointments.
If you seriously want to argue that the root of our problems is too much support, then you need to demonstrate this with reference to a period of high support. Because looking at where we are now in the context of the reduced support we have seen, points to the opposite.

Yes. 10% of people now hoover up everything while 90% go without. The more entitled, feckless and drug addled you are, the more ££ gets thrown at you in the hope you’ll improve. We may as well light bonfires and load bank notes onto it.

pointythings · 05/10/2026 09:30

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:25

Yes. 10% of people now hoover up everything while 90% go without. The more entitled, feckless and drug addled you are, the more ££ gets thrown at you in the hope you’ll improve. We may as well light bonfires and load bank notes onto it.

Well, you're right about the 10% hoovering up everything. It's just not the 10% you are thinking of.

FridayNightBlues · 05/10/2026 09:38

It's like saying the best form of clinical treatment is good health.

Welfare is obviously for people when they can't get a well paying job for whatever reason. And just as we need to help people to stay healthy we also need to help people to get a decent job but if that isn't possible for whatever reason you need to accept that and help them anyway. That's what a civilised society looks like.

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:39

pointythings · 05/10/2026 09:30

Well, you're right about the 10% hoovering up everything. It's just not the 10% you are thinking of.

Yes, it is. I’m no fan of billionaires but accept we can raise taxes without further economy damage. We can however expect people to stop costing us a fortune with their feckless lifestyles!

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:39

FridayNightBlues · 05/10/2026 09:38

It's like saying the best form of clinical treatment is good health.

Welfare is obviously for people when they can't get a well paying job for whatever reason. And just as we need to help people to stay healthy we also need to help people to get a decent job but if that isn't possible for whatever reason you need to accept that and help them anyway. That's what a civilised society looks like.

I mean we do that and our society is not at all civilised.

5128gap · 05/10/2026 09:40

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:25

Yes. 10% of people now hoover up everything while 90% go without. The more entitled, feckless and drug addled you are, the more ££ gets thrown at you in the hope you’ll improve. We may as well light bonfires and load bank notes onto it.

While this is a simplistic and reductive comment, no doubt calculated to cause offence, you have inadvertently managed to a include a grain of truth.
Which is that the lower people sink, the more they cost. Which is one of the best arguments we can make for providing early support to prevent people spiralling down to high dependency.

TopPocketFind · 05/10/2026 09:40

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:39

Yes, it is. I’m no fan of billionaires but accept we can raise taxes without further economy damage. We can however expect people to stop costing us a fortune with their feckless lifestyles!

What are you proposing we do with the people you call feckless'?

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:43

TopPocketFind · 05/10/2026 09:40

What are you proposing we do with the people you call feckless'?

More prison cells and mandatory contraception if they want to claim benefits!

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:45

5128gap · 05/10/2026 09:40

While this is a simplistic and reductive comment, no doubt calculated to cause offence, you have inadvertently managed to a include a grain of truth.
Which is that the lower people sink, the more they cost. Which is one of the best arguments we can make for providing early support to prevent people spiralling down to high dependency.

I’m all for early support. But trying to support people past the age of 16 is about as effective as a chocolate teapot.

TopPocketFind · 05/10/2026 09:45

AgeingMillennial · 05/10/2026 09:43

More prison cells and mandatory contraception if they want to claim benefits!

You haven't thought this through, have you

Oofftheflooff · 05/10/2026 09:46

5128gap · 04/10/2026 17:34

Because, leaving aside the ethical matter of not wanting children to be hungry and homeless, its not good for society to have its citizens growing up in poverty. There is nothing that can be done to prevent people having children, and if some of those people have children they cant afford, there is no other option than for the state to step in, is there? Just as there is no other option if parents neglect or abuse their children the state steps in.

Going to say something really controversial and I know it would never be implemented as we are not China. We have a household income just above 50k and we couldn't afford to have more than 1 child. I think if you are a 2nd generation non working household you should not be allowed to have more than 1 child as you won't work and cost a fortune. If working households cant afford more kids so should non working. And if you dont comply you dont get your benefits....done

OP posts:
Oofftheflooff · 05/10/2026 09:47

Can totally non working households, not from disability or caring responsibilities give their view ?

OP posts: