AIBU to think challenging school rules can harm children’s resilience?

[Teenytinypineapple]

AIBU to think that many of those parents who push back against schools and their rules are completely oblivious to the damage they're doing to their children?

The children who do the best are those whose parents instill in them that they should conform. Yes, that will cause difficulties at times. Yes, there will be things they don't like. But that's life. That's how children develop resilience.

Whilst little Timmy and his Mommy are complaining about the school sending him home for wearing the wrong shoes, little Jimmy has learned to suck it up, wear the damn shoes, get his head down and realise it's up to him to make the most of his education.

Completely depends on the rule.

I don't see how being permanently conformist helps with resilience. Standing up for what's right is important at times.

It's now law that children of one biological sex cannot use the bathrooms, showers or changing rooms of the other

I was thinking more along the lines of cultural and religious programming and conditioning. There's a reason humans across borders hate each other.
All children are exposed to it.

I voted unreasonable because 'resilience' is both a heavy hitter of a word and not what following the rules is about.

But I do think parents and children should follow the rules. A good one for parents to follow might be to stop pretending it's ok to take kids on hols in term time.

Conform to me is not the right word, as a parent I have always encouraged if there is no reason not to follow a rule then do follow it, if you find a reason discuss it with the school or us and we will work on it

Blindly following is not right either is ignoring rules just to be 'different.' there is a middle ground of learning how to navigate situations and rules so go about things the right way

It's reassuring to see the majority agree but there's a significantly worrying amount who don't.

So far, we have about 100 responses to this post and a vast array of views on what school rules should be followed and what school rules shouldn't. Take a school with 1,000 students and (for the sake of argument) two parents each. That's 2,000 adults all with an opinion as to how the school should be run, the majority of whom won't be professionals in that field or work in that school. How on earth can a school legislate to keep everyone happy? Explaining and justifying the reasoning behind (what some parents deem to be) "ridiculous" rules would be an absolute waste of resources.

If you don't like the rules, find another school. If the rule is so "petty" (some people have mentioned sock colour in that vain) just follow it - what harm does following it do? It's absolutely ridiculous for parents to push back against such trivial matters and they do their children absolutely zero favours introducing the idea that observance of school rules is at the parent's / child's discretion. Where does it end?

Too many parents forget that teachers are professionals. In what other profession do people believe they have the right / knowledge to question the professionals to the extent people do with teachers? Take a look at the general behaviour in public, private and grammar schools. It is (generally) much better than in comprehensive schools. Those students follow the school rules and, yet, they are also taught how to properly and effectively challenge ideologies and the law.

Parents should also remember that children are just that - children. They are learning about the world. They are definitely not qualified to decide which rules in a school are good rules and which rules are bad rules - the vast majority have not yet developed the skill properly (if you've done plenty of reading on brain development in teenagers, you'll understand), nor have they gained the education or experience to have any idea about how to run a school. When a parent invites the idea that some school rules aren't worth following, they open their children up to the idea that the rules are flexible and at the whim of the individual. Which just isn't true. As with the law, we cannot, as individuals, decide which laws we think are worth following and which are not.

Once a child has it in their mind that rules are discretionary, then you've undermined the entire educational establishment and, sadly, one of the consequences is that when a child finds a rule they don't like or it's a bit more difficult to adhere to, they simply won't follow it.

Teaching children to challenge things is absolutely not teaching them that some school rules are stupid (or so they / their parents think) and therefore they don't need to be followed - that just gives them the idea that they know more than professional adults, which they quite simply don't. Teaching children how to bring a challenge is far more sophisticated and, whilst your child is moaning about being punished for not coming to lessons properly equipped, every other Tom, Dick and Harriet who has already learned about taking responsibility for oneself (and arrived with the correct pens, books, uniform etc) is learning how to properly change the world.

Honestly just no. Philosophically I just don’t agree. Why should a child be given detention for wearing a coat in the corridor or not wearing a blazer? There is no good reason. It’s petty authoritarianism. It’s the uniform rules I think that are most infuriating (and this is one of the reasons my DC go to a non-uniform school). Plenty of countries don’t wear uniform at school and it’s not like their schools are hotbeds of riots and anarchy.

Because those are the rules that school has chosen as its rules. Simple as that. If you don't like them, go elsewhere as you have done or, as an adult capable of properly rationalising and discussing the matter, approach the school in an appropriate fashion, rather than teach your children to flout the rules just because they don't like them.

Who are you / they to decide on or adapt the rules? The audacity is lost on so many. The school existed before your child attended and will continue to exist long after they've left. The rules aren't going to be adapted to suit your offspring.

Have a look at the uniforms of prep schools and public schools - they are usually far more quirky than those of the typical comp, yet all children confirm.

As to why children are told to remove coats before coming inside, there are a myriad of reasons... If their coat is wet and they brush past other children or displays on the walls (as often happens in busy corridors) then other children or displays get wet; coats are bulky and further bulk out crowded corridors more so than if coats are removed; children taking coats off in lessons is disruptive (you probably have no idea just how much disruption a single child can cause, removing a single item of clothing); coats are generally good places to hide items because of their bulky nature (including items children shouldn't have on them)... The list goes on... Ultimately, there are reasons for most rules.

I agree. Conforming without question is never a good thing. That’s what authoritarian states run on. If no one ever questioned the rules that were unfair or didn’t make sense we’d be living in a very different world right now. Kids need to understand there ARE rules but they also need to be taught to analyse and critique the rules that are put to them, not mindlessly accept them. That doesn’t mean they get permission to flaunt all the rules and do what they like, it does mean they get to consider whether they want to participate in a system that has rules they disagree with, that they get to raise concerns about rules they think are unfair, and they learn to advocate for themselves.

But school rules are not rules children are entitled, or have any qualifications / experience to critique. You're suggesting a 12-year-old has a better idea than an adult (whose educated themselves in teaching and gained years of first-hand experience) on what the rules should be. A 12-year old has only their own view and 12 short years of life as a child to go by, they have no idea of the realities of a school.

And children do not have a choice over participating in a system that has rules they do not agree with - school is compulsory for children, it's not something they can simply opt out of. Many children do not yet know what really is in their best interests.

Parents who teach their children that school rules are discretionary have zero idea about the impact that has in the classroom... Corridors... On the playground. They do not see how the attitude that "it's ok to only follow the rules that they, as children, bless with their approval" creates. Every rule becomes up for grabs - which, in reality, they're not. Schools are entitled to set rules and punishments for breaching those rules. It is the way it is.

And, ultimately, those parents who don't bring up their children to understand that do their children no favours.

This is where our views don’t align. I absolutely believe a 12-year-old can have insights into what is best for them. And I’m not saying they can choose not to go to school, but I am saying that they can have opinions on the rules of their particular school and if they feel they belong there. Not abiding by a rule will always have a consequence of some kind — and sometimes a child and a parent together will decide that the child will wear that consequence because the benefit to the wellbeing of the child in not abiding by the rule on that occasion outweighs the benefit of following it. That might mean an unauthorised absence or it might mean being asked to leave the school.

Rules are not laws, we can choose to abide by them or not and wear the consequences. Everyone has this right. Ultimately the parent is responsible for the wellbeing of their individual child and it’s up to them to decide if the rules make sense for their child and wear the consequences either way. And that’s as it should be.

The problem is that the rules have to be the same for every student in the school. A child and parent believing that the rule doesn't suit that child is not a reason not to follow it.

If there is a genuine problem with a specific rule being followed by a particular child, there are processes in place to address this (and schools are constantly trying to do this) but none of those processes include a child, or parent and child, deciding, unilaterally, that the child will not follow the rule.

If all 1,000 children in a school took your approach, there would be anarchy. The issue is that there are now such a significant number of children deciding which rules they don't want to follow (on the basis that they are entitled to be the arbiters of which rules are silly and which ones are worth adhering to) that poor behaviour is becoming (or perhaps has already become) endemic, and those children have an insufferable amount of entitlement.

We clearly have different values when it comes to this issue. There have to be rules, but rules simply do not have to be followed. People DO have to accept the school’s consequence for not following the rule. The school decides on the rules and consequences of that and people decide if they want to wear those consequences. I support everyone’s right to decide whether they want to follow the rules and wear the consequences. I might not personally agree with their choice but I support their right to make it.

I totally agree with you that our children in general are nowhere near as resilient as.children used to be and it has all sorts of knock on effects to them both individually in terms of mental health/coping mechanisms but also to our wider society (work ethic etc), I also agree to a large extent that parents challenging school rules (homework, behaviour policies, uniform etc ) in front of their children does give the message to children of ‘you don’t do anything you don’t want to do Billy’ and does affect their mindset and resilience.

However, schools don’t always get it right with their policies or handling of an individual and parents absolutely should challenge that and advocate for their child if they strongly believe it’s having a negative impact on their child but do so as much as possibly privately with the school and not in front of the child and only challenge what really matters to their wellbeing/ and not if you dont agree with school skirt length/sock colour policy, that’s the difference I think.

No, you did lose credibility when you compared school rules to a genocide, as does anyone who triggers Godwin's law. You and other posters who think the majority of students who challenge school rules are going to grow up to be highly politically engaged critical thinkers are utterly delusional, unless the vapes they are using in the toilet cubicles contain some magic ingredients we are not yet aware of. These students couldn't care less about anything other than the human right they have invented that apparently states they can go in the the toilet at any given time for as long as they want and with whom they want. The real human right to an education? They're not so bothered about that one. The parents who back them up are doing them no favours whatsoever.

Yes, there can be times when politely challenging a rule can be effective and appropriate, but at my school we seldom see that happening. My ds was outraged (not that the teacher would have known) when a new seating plan was introduced in his Y11 English class and he was apparently the only one not next to anyone he was friends with (behaviour exemplary, btw, and he was extremely confident - I think he was being used to get some quiet students talking in discussions.) We talked it through and discussed his raising it with the teacher after class one day but in the end he decided not to bother as it wasn't that big a deal. He's at Cambridge now and I really don't think his critical thinking skills have suffered because he did as he was told throughout school.

You do realise plenty of teachers also disagree with certain rules, or simply don’t care about them much/see them as a waste of time, right?

The situation you describe with vapes etc isn’t students or parents challenging rules. It’s rebellion. That’s not what’s being discussed.

The OP made it clear she thinks rules should be followed because compliance is a key skill in life. Your son challenging his teacher is an example of appropriate challenge rather than blind compliance. Blind compliance did indeed, give us Nazis willing to murder Jews.

@Teenytinypineapple

If you don't like the rules, find another school. If the rule is so "petty" (some people have mentioned sock colour in that vain) just follow it - what harm does following it do? It's absolutely ridiculous for parents to push back against such trivial matters and they do their children absolutely zero favours introducing the idea that observance of school rules is at the parent's / child's discretion. Where does it end?

I think you are taking this to extremes. There has to be an element of parental discretion, by definition, otherwise it would be a prison not a school. You as the parent have to have ultimate authority over your children. If your child’s school mandated that every child had to be circumcised on school premises you can bet you would exercise discretion.

I agree with your general sentiment that nitpicking over everything is counterproductive and its important for children to understand that rules are there for the good of the children, but I would and have challenged rules which I think are harmful, arbitrary or counterproductive.

I am my child’s legal guardian and ultimate authority and I am not obliged to blindly follow something I profoundly disagree with and believe is not in their interest. Nor do I want to raise a child who cannot identify bad law.

Educators do a phenomenal job and I do think its important to respect their authority but they are not infallible.

Teaching children to unquestioningly obey those who seem to be expert authority figures is not a good thing. The Milgram Experiment is a good demonstration of how that that goes. We don't want a generation of children who will do horrific things if an authority figure tells them to.

Some school rules are pointless and I say that as a teacher. However, rules relating to actual learning should be followed. Complaining that you dc got a detention for not doing their homework without a really good excuse is not helping yet seems to be happening more frequently.

i agree OP you can’t complain just because you prefer an alternative when you have signed up to that set of rules - those of the school. If so many parent have issues with attendance and uniform please do home school.

Broadly speaking our society rest on formal rule via legal frameworks and informal rules eg queuing - when you teach a child either explicitly or implicitly that breaking rules is ok you potentially open the door for more serious rules to be broken

Teaching your child judgement about when to break a rule when to challenge a rule is far more valuable

Think how much of staff time is taken up because a child wants to wear trainers instead of school shoes - someone up the thread made the point that it doesn’t matter they can still learn - well they can in correct shoes too.

Its about time these twisty immature parents starting working with schools rather bemoaning their lot as they think the rules don’t apply to them

Exactly this - not following a rule because a child / their parent thinks it's stupid is not teaching critical thinking. Far from it.

Properly challenging a rule (and adhering to it, until it is changed) is something quite different. But it's not up to a 12 year old to defy a rule / teacher as their method of challenging a rule. That's pure disobedience but so many parents now seem to take the view that, if they don't like the rule, it's ok not to follow it which is absolutely insane.

I went to a grammar school where we were made to kneel on the stage to check our skirts touched the floor and even our hair bobbles had to be the right colour. Behaviour was exemplary with the very odd, mild discrepancy. It is my peers who are now the doctors, researchers, lawyers, judges, politicians of the world who are actually changing things - not the kids whose parents helped justify their non-compliance. It's so, so short sighted of those parents.

And those teachers make life harder for everyone because they also give the impression the rules are there for choosing and some other poor sod, who picks up Timmy in period 4, noticing he hasn't come to school properly dressed or equipped then has to deal with not only the student but also the members of staff who didn't follow school policy. School policy isn't the choice of classroom teachers - school policy is decided at trust / senior leadership level. Once decided, it's for everyone to follow. If someone wants it changed, there are ways and means to challenge it. Funnily enough, I'm yet to hear of a bunch of classroom teachers doing this - a lot of the time they don't instill the rules is because they can't be bothered with the paperwork and follow ups.

Have you actually read the thread? The comments do not show that the majority agree with you.

Thing is, once a parent has suggested to their child that the rules don't have to be followed if they don't like them, the child will apply that however so they want. All children push boundaries - there's a reason the boundaries don't start at the edge. Get the small stuff right and the big stuff follows. If a child / parent dislikes a rule, there are proper ways to challenge it - none of which include defiance from a child. It teaches the child nothing other than their opinion is the most important and that they can unilaterally do what they want without following due process - sounds a bit Hitler-ish, don't you think?