Lucy Letby - Specifically those who think she is guilty…

[BEAchDays2]

I’ve just been reading massive amounts of posts of Facebook following the new doc out about LL. (Blame a long train journey!) and it got me thinking, those who still think she is guilty what are your reasons?

It does feel like the tide has turned generally. I haven’t watched the new doc yet, likewise has anyone seen it, and is it worth it?

Please cite the direct source for that to establish whether that was prosecution hypothesis / speculation or proven fact. As Google with those terms brings up nothing even when including trial transcripts in the search terms.

I don't think people are saying that. They are saying that she has been found guilty more than once by a court of law and two different juries. They had information others don't. If there is genuinely new evidence that wasn't considered previously then her lawyers can apply to appeal if the evidence is conclusive she will be allowed to appeal.
What annoys me and many others are all the amateur detectives who have just decided she must be innocent. I wonder if there would be the same issue if the nurse concerned was a non white middle aged man.

Dr Shoo Lee, a man of colour, not only gave this a second thought but has gone to some considerable effort to refute incorrect use of his research by the prosecution. Did you not know this, or do you just think he qualifies as an armchair expert and wouldn't have been interested if she were an Asian male like, erm, him?

I think there’s something very odd about her demeanour, she seems very quiet, a bit socially awkward and childlike on the outside and quite a people pleaser but that could be hiding some very deep resentment internally.

I don’t think she looks sweet and innocent, she is unusually calm and collected for someone wrongfully accused of these crimes.
She doesn’t seem shocked or mortified in the police interview at the accusations and just calmly answers questions and awaits her fate with a poker face.

I did read at the time many nurses saying they also take notes home in their uniform but to hoard so many of them like that is just odd behaviour.

She just seems cold and emotionless to me, if I was wrongly arrested for those things I’d be hyperventilating and passing out getting in the police car and throwing up and shaking in court in fear that they would think I was guilty and I would be getting life, screaming and crying at the injustice.

She is guilty, but no doubt mistakes were made during the gathering of evidence and in the trial.

Exactly my thinking.

The reasons this case should be reviewed are before the CCRC. That's fine.

The reasons to talk about this case and what it reveals about our justice system are not limited to the CCRC application and its outcome.

The two juries weren’t independent because the
second was told they could take the first verdict into account, ie the question they looked at was ‘Do you think this serial killer is guilty of this murder too?’ rather than ‘do you think this evidence alone proves this random person is guilty?’
If the first case falls down the second automatically follows.

As for the evidence, the juries did not have special secret evidence that isn’t available to the experts like Shoo Lee’s panel who have reconsidered the case in the light of their expertise. On the contrary they lacked the evidence that has since emerged.

Most people I know who have concerns about the case, it’s not because they fancy themselves as amateur detectives but because of the vast number of people with genuine expertise in all the different areas who have concerns about.
The only amateur detective behaviour I have seen on this thread is the pop psychology stuff upthread.

Yeh first trial was ten months long and the jury deliberated for over 100 hours then there was a second trial on one of the charges . It was hardly hurried

Honestly she'd likely have to go into wittness protection if she was released!doubt shed want to go back to the NHS

As a reserved person it really worries me the amount of people who think everyone innocent would be in hysterics for months and years constantly. She was taken in by the police multiple times but at each time she's supposed to act surprised and flip out. It's just not true that freezing and complying with the police is a sign of coldness and guilt.

Have you thought about whether anti depressants, thyroid medication and training to stay calm in a life or death crisis might affect your responses?

Have you ever been at the scene of a tragedy or an accident, or even at a funeral, and noticed that some people are openly emotional, some are controlled, some are hysterical, some are frozen?

We know about fight, flight, freeze, fawn responses. I find it hard to predict my own response in advance. I wouldn't judge anybody else by theirs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about this case. I have worked in neonatal units and I think that her actions were very suspicious to say the least. The handover notes that she kept about babies in her care to start with. She claimed to have accidentally taken them home instead of destroying confidential information in the correct place. She claimed not to own a shredder but a working shredder was found in her home. The diary that she kept full of references to murder and the babies. Would anyone trust her to care for their newborn in view of the evidence. I know I wouldn’t. I think she was deeply troubled.

Why on earth would she put herself back in that system? Anyway, guilt or innocence aside, I don't think it's usual for people to come out of jail well adjusted and resilient and ready to work.

I wonder if people asked the same question about Sally Clark? Because the answer is pretty tragic - no, I wouldn't trust someone driven to drink themselves to death by a miscarriage of justice with my (hypothetical) children.

She wasn’t that young, she was a 34 year old woman when convicted the same as I am now, she just came across as mummy and daddy’s little girl.
A mummy who was prepared to take the blame for her when she said “I did it, take me instead”

I read the trial transcripts and believe her to be guilty.
People dont want to think that, as she's young and pretty.
She had a trial and the court found her guilty

Do you have any particular mistakes in mind, or do you just mean we would always expect some mistakes?

She's been struck off, apparently has PTSD and as a pp said, has anyone stopped to think about what people who get released after wrongful convictions are usually like mentally? I really don't think the prospect of her turning up in the NHS if eventually released is one that anyone needs to be concerned about.

Unlike the dodgy consultants around her, who still are practicing. Since this thread doesn't seem able to avoid people speculating about race and sex, I wonder whether a woman of any ethnicity would still be in her cushy consultant role if she'd done what Ravi Jayaram has?

I think many mothers would be distraught and irrational in these circumstances. I don't think it has any particular significance. It is funny how people judge Lucy Letby's reserve and her mother's hysteria both as "wrong" responses.

The juries didn't have information others don't. The entire trial proceedings are online now.

Others do have a lot of information the juries didn't, and that is what usually happens with miscarriages of justice. The courts are informed of information not put before the jury.

A lot of the diary was written when she was being investigated for murder. I imagine most people's mental health would deteriorate if they were being investigated for murdering children, it'd be weird if it didn't.

I think things like not remembering if you have a shredder don't mean much. I imagine you could catch lots of people out on things like that. When I was younger I was a terrible slob and procrastinator and had tasks and mess I never dealt with even though from an outsiders POV it would have been easy to get around to doing.

Then I’m sorry the evidence is too complicated for you many people who work on NNU disagree with you.

That is complete nonsense. The prosecution never claimed this and nor has anyone else suggested there is evidence for it

It is interesting how much people like to invent stories around this case. Almost as if its weaknesses were obvious.

I think guilty is the wrong word here. If the crimes were committed then she is guilty of them. The deeper question is whether the crimes were committed at all. And too many people with expertise in this field have at the very least cast doubt.

If the crimes weren’t committed, it doesn’t matter if she’s cold, a liar, immature, odd; it’s unimportant whether she has a shredder or not or was in her pyjamas when arrested or has cats. She isn’t ‘guilty’ because no crimes were committed.

The other thing that is interesting is that Letby is cast as a serial liar on the basis that she said she did not have a shredder and did, but Dr Jayaram was found to have lied in the stand and this is glossed over.

And he is not a white female; the opposite. I am not convinced her appearance or sex did her any favours here.