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Lucy Letby - Specifically those who think she is guilty…

200 replies

BEAchDays2 · Today 07:30

I’ve just been reading massive amounts of posts of Facebook following the new doc out about LL. (Blame a long train journey!) and it got me thinking, those who still think she is guilty what are your reasons?

It does feel like the tide has turned generally. I haven’t watched the new doc yet, likewise has anyone seen it, and is it worth it?

OP posts:
darkbyeight · Today 09:15

AtIusvue · Today 08:49

I’m more curious about why so many, let’s face it white women, don’t accept that that a plain, mousy brown haired, white woman, killed these babies and won’t accept the conviction.

Should we have left Sally Clarke in jail, then?

The only important thing is ‘did they do it’s (and in this case that means ‘were crimes committed’.

The endless fixation on her sex and appearance is tedious beyond belief, it really is. I have no idea why some think it’s OK for a black or Asian person to serve time in prison for a crime they didn’t commit. I don’t think that; if you do, we won’t agree.

Phonicshaskilledmeoff · Today 09:15

Her own writing confirming she was guilty. "I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough," "I don't deserve to live," "I am a horrible evil person," and in capital letters, "I AM EVIL I DID THIS".

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · Today 09:16

TallulahBetty · Today 09:03

She was found guilty by a jury of her peers. Of course she is guilty.

Was else happened to those babies? How else is it explained? Other than a MASSSSSSSSIVE, unfortunate coincidence?

It’s not unexplained at all.
The deaths coincided with a period when staffing was cut to the bone, Letby was one of the most experienced nurses at times despite being in her 20s because the nurses with decades of experience had been let go to save money.
Consultants were doing 2 ward rounds a week instead of the more usual 2 or 3 A DAY. The doctors were paediatricians rather than neonatologists leading to several instances of poor medical care which the jury wasn’t told about. The hospital was in such a bad state there was sewage backing up through the taps and dripping through the ceiling. Despite all this the hospital was taking babies of a higher level of acuity than they should have been.
An international panel of world leading neonatologists and other relevant experts has explained in detail what they think happened to each baby and their conclusion is there were no murders at all, but a hospital that should have been closed down.
I won’t say we’re a laughing stock because I don’t think anyone is laughing but being so deeply in denial about the effects of inadequate hospital care that we have to come up with the idea of a serial killer and fit up the nurse who was unlucky enough to be present for the most deaths is pretty embarrassing.

darkbyeight · Today 09:16

Also said she did nothing wrong.

So if we’re convicting her on the basis of her own words, she needs immediate release.

But that would be silly, wouldn’t it?

montysmaw · Today 09:17

I think her defence team need looked at very closely. the mounted virtually no defence, they called no witnessess.
There were plenty of statisticians, medics and scientists who would have testified that the claims made by the prosecution were not supported by the science. The were never called. Why?
The lack of a defence alone is grounds for a mistrial) be that through malpractice or incompetence .

Bromptotoo · Today 09:17

Juniorp · Today 07:35

Which new doc is this?

I don't know if she's innocent or not, but don't she met the bar for being found guilty.

That.

Exactly.

Would another jury at a retrial be 'so certain that they are sure' of her guilt?

Phonicshaskilledmeoff · Today 09:18

If her conviction is overturned she would be allowed to go back to a nursing role.

I wonder how many of those campaigning would be comfortable with her taking care of their loved ones. I know I wouldn’t.

NamelessNancy · Today 09:18

Absolutely. Imo the jury system is no longer fit for purpose wherever technical/complex evidence needs to be considered.

ETA I meant to quote @ThisDandyWriter re accountancy fraud

Iocanepowder · Today 09:20

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · Today 09:16

It’s not unexplained at all.
The deaths coincided with a period when staffing was cut to the bone, Letby was one of the most experienced nurses at times despite being in her 20s because the nurses with decades of experience had been let go to save money.
Consultants were doing 2 ward rounds a week instead of the more usual 2 or 3 A DAY. The doctors were paediatricians rather than neonatologists leading to several instances of poor medical care which the jury wasn’t told about. The hospital was in such a bad state there was sewage backing up through the taps and dripping through the ceiling. Despite all this the hospital was taking babies of a higher level of acuity than they should have been.
An international panel of world leading neonatologists and other relevant experts has explained in detail what they think happened to each baby and their conclusion is there were no murders at all, but a hospital that should have been closed down.
I won’t say we’re a laughing stock because I don’t think anyone is laughing but being so deeply in denial about the effects of inadequate hospital care that we have to come up with the idea of a serial killer and fit up the nurse who was unlucky enough to be present for the most deaths is pretty embarrassing.

Both can be true though. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. The hospital was in a poor state, and Lucy Letby was guilty.

HesterLeggatt · Today 09:21

Neonatal care isn’t my specialty but I do work in a related area. I’m trying to think of a good way to say this, but I’m struggling a bit. Think of neonatal medicine as pushing a rock uphill. It’s not an impossibly heavy rock, so it’s doable, but it’s a question of steady progress, and occasionally you might hit a divot so need to push harder, or change your grip on the rock, or you might hit an unexpectedly smooth hit and have some easy steps. Neonatal medicine is largely about keeping going forward, and making small adjustments overall to keep the baby stable - tackling infections, working on feeding etc - so that their own bodies have the time to play catch up. Babies can take a sudden turn for the worse, of course, but on the whole, babies who have shown a long pattern of improvement and are almost ready for discharge don’t just suddenly die.

Neonatal unit care offers a tiered system - usually you’ll have a NICU, where very sick babies who need a lot of support go, and then you’ll have a SCBU, where babies who are unwell but not critical or who have improved enough to step down off NICU go, and then you’ll have a neonatal nursery, or transitional care, or bedding in unit where babies are essentially well but who need a bit of extra support - maybe ongoing medications or tube feeds - and there might be cares that the parents are being taught prior to discharge. A number of the babies that Letby was charged in the deaths of fell very much into this category, and babies like that don’t just die on their own out of the blue.

There were also a number of multiples who died - whilst multiples can and do die, the most common is that the baby who is in the poorest condition at birth usually dies at or fairly soon after birth, whilst the other/others go on to have a longer NICU journey, and again - sometimes babies who have got almost well do die, however the odds of this happening to both/all 3 of a set are extremely tiny.

Furthermore, it is very odd how much she tried to insert herself into the families’ grief and the way she responded to the deaths from an emotional perspective- this simply isn’t the norm, and there were some absolutely huge behavioural red flags.

Almost every neonatologist and neonatal nurse I know, and that’s quite a lot, are convinced of her guilt on the balance of the evidence, and that’s just the publicly available evidence - more would have been available to the jury.

The unit itself sounds very poorly run, but again in the cases of a failing unit, deaths tend to come in clusters with a specific reason, ie you might see a spike in deaths close together from a particular type of infection, or from a lack of timely intervention, or from a specific type of drug error due to poor education practices. The diffuse pattern of the deaths is also in itself a red flag.

Oftenaddled · Today 09:21

AtIusvue · Today 08:49

I’m more curious about why so many, let’s face it white women, don’t accept that that a plain, mousy brown haired, white woman, killed these babies and won’t accept the conviction.

Have you looked at the panel of expert doctors who have questioned the safety of her conviction? It's not a group of white women. But most people in this country are white, and it is mostly white people one sees in the media doubting the safety of her conviction, and defending it.

I don't think it's sensible to try to turn this into a dispute about race.

Expert panel findings are at : https://lucyletbyinnocence.com/#shoolee

Lucy Letby Innocence

An independent website presenting evidence, trial documents, and analysis in support of the claim that Lucy Letby is innocent.

https://lucyletbyinnocence.com/#shoolee

MrsShawnHatosy · Today 09:22

ToKittyornottoKitty · Today 07:47

Hasn’t she been found guilty? Who else do you think murdered all those babies?

Didn’t an international panel of expert neonatologists conclude that the babies had not been murdered but died because of medical incompetence by doctors? Lucy Letby is a scapegoat.

Oftenaddled · Today 09:22

Phonicshaskilledmeoff · Today 09:18

If her conviction is overturned she would be allowed to go back to a nursing role.

I wonder how many of those campaigning would be comfortable with her taking care of their loved ones. I know I wouldn’t.

I doubt she would want to or be in any fit state to. She wouldn't go back on the register automatically anyway. But we couldn't keep her in jail just because people would be uncomfortable with the prospect.

BEAchDays2 · Today 09:24

I agree @OftenaddledCant imagine she’d even want to!

OP posts:
Bollihobs · Today 09:25

"those who still think she is guilty" 🙄

The docus all have the lean towards " is she innocent" because that's what will pull in views - I think people want her to be innocent.

A one hour or even two or three or four docu, and there have been a few, "she's innocent!" against the information gone through at the trial. Which found her guilty.

The trial lasted over 10 months.

9 months of that was evidence giving - witnesses, experts, Letby herself.

Unsurprisingly after that amount of information the jury took 22 days to reach it's verdict. 22 days of going over everything they'd heard and been shown.

Not an hour. 10 months in total. And for all those who will say "oh but the experts have changed their minds now!" 9 months of evidence was a lot more than a handful of experts and their opinions, it was day to day, hour by hour examination of those poor babies short lives and where Letby was, minute by minute sometimes. It was background info, Letby shouted at her supervisor because she'd been put in Nursery 3 after two baby deaths and she wanted, demanded, to be back Nursery 1 "I've told them how I feel and I think that should be respected" - etc.etc.etc. So much more than just a few heads on a one docu.

Oftenaddled · Today 09:26

HesterLeggatt · Today 09:21

Neonatal care isn’t my specialty but I do work in a related area. I’m trying to think of a good way to say this, but I’m struggling a bit. Think of neonatal medicine as pushing a rock uphill. It’s not an impossibly heavy rock, so it’s doable, but it’s a question of steady progress, and occasionally you might hit a divot so need to push harder, or change your grip on the rock, or you might hit an unexpectedly smooth hit and have some easy steps. Neonatal medicine is largely about keeping going forward, and making small adjustments overall to keep the baby stable - tackling infections, working on feeding etc - so that their own bodies have the time to play catch up. Babies can take a sudden turn for the worse, of course, but on the whole, babies who have shown a long pattern of improvement and are almost ready for discharge don’t just suddenly die.

Neonatal unit care offers a tiered system - usually you’ll have a NICU, where very sick babies who need a lot of support go, and then you’ll have a SCBU, where babies who are unwell but not critical or who have improved enough to step down off NICU go, and then you’ll have a neonatal nursery, or transitional care, or bedding in unit where babies are essentially well but who need a bit of extra support - maybe ongoing medications or tube feeds - and there might be cares that the parents are being taught prior to discharge. A number of the babies that Letby was charged in the deaths of fell very much into this category, and babies like that don’t just die on their own out of the blue.

There were also a number of multiples who died - whilst multiples can and do die, the most common is that the baby who is in the poorest condition at birth usually dies at or fairly soon after birth, whilst the other/others go on to have a longer NICU journey, and again - sometimes babies who have got almost well do die, however the odds of this happening to both/all 3 of a set are extremely tiny.

Furthermore, it is very odd how much she tried to insert herself into the families’ grief and the way she responded to the deaths from an emotional perspective- this simply isn’t the norm, and there were some absolutely huge behavioural red flags.

Almost every neonatologist and neonatal nurse I know, and that’s quite a lot, are convinced of her guilt on the balance of the evidence, and that’s just the publicly available evidence - more would have been available to the jury.

The unit itself sounds very poorly run, but again in the cases of a failing unit, deaths tend to come in clusters with a specific reason, ie you might see a spike in deaths close together from a particular type of infection, or from a lack of timely intervention, or from a specific type of drug error due to poor education practices. The diffuse pattern of the deaths is also in itself a red flag.

What counters the argument that there was indeed a lack of timely intervention in these cases? That's the conclusion the panel of neonatologists examining the case has come to, along with errors in care. You seem to be listing things that could indeed have caused these deaths, but it's not clear why you are ruling them out.

Oftenaddled · Today 09:28

Iocanepowder · Today 09:20

Both can be true though. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. The hospital was in a poor state, and Lucy Letby was guilty.

It doesn't have to be one or the other, but it doesn't matter that the jury was told about the possibility of one, but not the other. If they had heard about the hospital's failings, who knows what the verdict might have been.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · Today 09:28

Iocanepowder · Today 09:20

Both can be true though. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. The hospital was in a poor state, and Lucy Letby was guilty.

They could but she’s not.
The evidence for guilt is unbelievably weak. It only looks like a lot because there were so many babies involved.
For example, the insulin poisoning claim rests purely on two anomalous results from a test which is not designed for neonates and specifically says in the instructions it isn’t reliable enough to be used in legal cases. No witnesses showing her tampering with the bags, no explanation of how she got insulin into tamper evident bags with no sign of tampering, and now it turns out there were also results showing normal levels in the same babies which the jury weren’t told about.

Iris2020 · Today 09:30

NamelessNancy · Today 07:56

Whether or not she's guilty I find the idea that juries are infallible and will inevitably give the right verdict very odd. In particular I think it's a very flawed system for deciding the outcome where the evidence is technical/medical. These cases should be decided by people with both legal and medical training imo.

This. I find the idea that a judgement automatically reflects the truth to be bizarre. Miscarriages of justice are incredibly frequent.

I M not saying that Letby is innocent though, I haven't followed enough to know.

heresiarch · Today 09:32

AtIusvue · Today 08:49

I’m more curious about why so many, let’s face it white women, don’t accept that that a plain, mousy brown haired, white woman, killed these babies and won’t accept the conviction.

The insane conspiracy theories surrounding Lindsay Clancy and how it was somehow all her husband's fault reminded me of this too.

LoafofSellotape · Today 09:32

DancingonmyOwn88 · Today 07:50

I’ve listened to every episode of the Trial podcast and now the one they’re doing on the enquiry as to why her actions went unchecked for so long.

I am in no doubt she’s guilty, and I’m in no doubt the hospital were failing in many ways with regards to neonatal baby care.

Sadly, both things are true, and the consequences were devastating.

Edited

I listened to all the trial episodes too. I don't know how anyone can think she's not guilty after listening to all of them.

TallSturdyGirls · Today 09:33

BEAchDays2 · Today 08:23

@TallSturdyGirlsIt may or may not surprise you that I don’t actually mind what you think of me. Random person on the internet.

Of course you don't. We've established that you don't really think about other people. But do not think about the babies' parents and families? Or about the babies who could be reading this and somebody wanting to actually be in the court room which must have been hell on earth.

Viviennemary · Today 09:36

I think she is guilty. The doctors suspected something was going on with the sudden deaths. Seven babies mudered guilty attempted murder of seven more guilty. You can argue she's innocent but I think she's guilty.

Hellohelga · Today 09:36

The tide isn’t turning, in fact the inquiry into why the hospital didn’t act sooner has shown she should have been reported to police far earlier, given the amount of evidence against her. The hospital bosses have been found guilty of gross misjudgement, lack of candour, and a complete lack of awareness of safeguarding in not reporting it to police sooner. Ie there was a cover up.

ThatGoldFox · Today 09:40

I thought someone witnessed her in the same room as a baby in distress and not doing her job to help and respond but just standing there until someone else walked in. That seemed the most compelling evidence to me if true.