To not pay my bus fare (London bus)

[KatRee]

Got on the bus today with my 1-year-old in the pushchair and my 3-year-old, who was walking. We went through the doors at the back to get directly into the wheelchair/pushchair space.
As soon as we got on, the announcement was played: “For your child’s safety, please stay with your buggy.” There were no seats, so my eldest also had to stand with us and hold on tight to keep his balance. I needed to supervise him to make sure he was doing that.
There were people standing in the aisle, so I couldn’t easily get to the front to tap my card to pay. So I ended up not paying.
This has happened maybe 2 or 3 times before since I’ve had kids and I always feel like I’ve done something wrong! But I’m not really sure what’s expected.
Usually we either get on at the front if the aisle is clear, as I have a little pushchair that fits down it, or we get on at the back, I quickly put the brake on, my eldest sits down and I run to the front and back to tap before the bus sets off.

Was I unreasonable not to pay today?
YABU – It’s basically stealing – pay your fare!
YANBU – For the love of God woman, supervise your small children and don’t worry about depriving TfL of £1.75!

My buggy won't fit down the aisle either. So I have to get on at the back. Which means once I'm on and got it into the space, brake on, I usually try to dash down the aisle to tap my card.

They need to install readers by the rear doors to avoid these issues. This must happen to thousands of parents across London every day.

Sometimes the solution isn't safe or simple:

Emptier bus - leave buggy in area and go to front to pay? But driver goes 0-60 in 0.2secs and buggy tips over. I've fallen over too because they shoot off so quickly and allow passengers NO TIME to be safely seated or situated.

Busy bus - pass card or phone through line of 40 strangers? Nobody can think that's sensible. It takes a second for someone to take a picture of my bank card.

Queue to get on at front and tap in, then go back to buggy and get on back? But that means queuing with buggy and u-turn to rear doors (sometimes physically impossible!) eliciting fury of strangers - and then unable to board as they've all stood in the area. So have paid and then can't get on.

Or leave buggy by rear doors whilst I queue. Still may not be able to get on if people have filled the space, also means leaving child unattended and often out of full sight for anywhere up to a few mins depending on crowds.

I was on a bus just the other day which was overfilled beyond anyone's business. I physically couldn't have done any of the above. There was no space to get down the aisle to pay. It was so crowded at the bus stop the u-turn idea would have been impossible. I am not willing to leave my children unattended next to a road. The driver shot off the second they could do everyone standing lurched and nearly fell - including my standing 4yo.

The answer is readers by the rear doors - and drivers having some patience before pulling away from bus stops.

Trying to think what I used to do now as got the bus many times when mine were small.

I think it the aisle was clear, I would tap at the front & take the buggy on there, or at the time of tapping ask the driver to open the middle doors or leave them open for me to put pushchair direct into the space.

If it was super busy I used to put the pushchair on via the middle doors and then once we had left the stop I used to quickly go and tap. I figured when we were between stops there was no chance of anyone taking my kids off the bus.

Maybe you don’t go on many buses then! There are frequently 10-20 people standing on a standard double decker when it’s busy.

Plus some single decker buses don’t even have aisles you can fit a standard Maclaren buggy down (like the C11 in north London) so you gave to get on in the middle.

Thanks for the responses. In some ways it’s a relief that there doesn’t appear to be a clear consensus. Although I’ve lived in London for over 10 years now, I still sometimes feel like I’m missing some unwritten rules that ‘real’ Londoners just know!

I am a bit surprised by the number of people who think I should have just got on at the front despite there being people standing in the aisle as I feel like in this neck of the woods at least, it’s definitely the done thing to get on at the back doors if you have a buggy unless the aisle in completely clear and you are getting on first at the bus stop. I think it would be difficult for anyone standing in the aisle to get out of the way when it’s busy and I always feel that the drivers just want you to park the thing asap as they aren’t supposed to drive off until you’ve done that, so they wouldn’t appreciate you spending extra time navigating the aisle.

Yesterday, what happened was we came out of a supermarket and the bus was at the stop about to drive off. We ran to get it, signally to the driver and he kindly waited the extra few seconds and opened the back door, so I understood we were to get on there. He then immediately played the ‘stay with your buggy’ announcement, so I took that as an instruction not to move!

There were people standing in the space originally, but they moved out of it so I could put the buggy there and in doing that, the aisle became even busier and it would definitely have taken more than 15 seconds for me to get to the front and back again. To be honest, even when I can do it in about 2 seconds, I hate it as they do usually drive off as soon as you’re parked up and I am worried about the pushchair falling over in the short time I’m not right next to it. There’s definitely been many occasions on journeys where it’s just me being there holding on that has stopped it tipping up.
Yesterday I also had a full, heavy shopping bag, which I felt made things even trickier as I couldn’t set it down or it would have spilled everywhere and it would have made it even more difficult to navigate the aisle.

I have seen people pass their cards down the aisle to tap on a couple of occasions. I’m not sure I would feel comfortable doing it myself and it didn’t even occur to me yesterday tbh. I mostly use my phone for making payments and I had that to hand, but my cards were buried in my bag amongst assorted toddler paraphernalia and my hands were very full.

So, still a bit non-the-wiser! If it makes anyone feel better, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve accidentally tapped in and out of the underground with different cards and been charged the maximum fair- sized tfl have definitely had a lot more money off me for trips I’ve never made! Yes, yes, yes, I know that wouldn’t count for anything if an inspector did get on, but does make me feel a bit better in myself.

If parents folded their buggies, as they’re supposed to, rather than taking up the wheelchair spaces, then all this would be moot.

There’s no requirement to fold buggies unless the space is occupied already or someone in a wheelchair needs to get on. If this ever happened I would just get off and wait for the next one or walk because there’s no way I can manage to take out everything that’s stored under the buggy, get my child out, fold and store it, and then keep hold of two children, including a child who’s only just learned to walk, pushchair and bags for the duration of the journey and safely get everything off at the end. There is no London bus driver who would wait for me to sort myself out in that situation.

Edited for typos!

You just tap at the front and get on at the back, it's not that hard! Bus driver sounds like he was in a rush as they often call a parent to beep the card.

There's really no need for a palavar

@murasaki between people suggesting pushing your buggy to the front of a busy bus during rush hour/ sending your 3 year old to the front to pay/ handing your card to strangers - I think we may have identified the bus nutters on this very thread 🤭.

YANBU. This is why some countries have free travel for those travelling with children in push chairs. (Also agree with others who've pointed out that TfL really should have at least 2 oyster card touch points on all buses.)

Has it occurred to you that different buses have different width aisles. A large buggy or electric wheelchair would struggle to get past the large luggage rack over the front wheel arch on a standard London bus.

When people are talking about a rush hour London bus we mean the whole aisle is filled with people standing. When the bus stops people crammed in the doorways have to get off to let people out then get back on again.

I commute most days and on rush hour transport or if there have been delays people have to take off small backpacks /laptop bags etc because there isn’t room to stand wearing them.

Because they can tip over, common sense really. It’s for your child’s safety as it also includes because I’ve seen parents go off and sit somewhere else and their pram has tipped over. Crazy parents even need to be told that. It’s nothing to do with theft or whatever you think it is.

You stay with the buggy for obvious reasons - it could tip or you may have to move it / fold it up to provide space. It's not rocket science is it? If someone else gets onto the bus with a buggy, you may have to manoeuvre your buggy to make room or, fold it up and move it for a wheelchair.

I've lived in zone 1 and spent years travelling in and around London. People do get on in the middle and then walk up the bus to tap in, people do tap in at the front and tell the driver that they need to get on using the middle doors, people do get on using the middle doors, pass their card to another passenger to tap in for them. London is essentially a set of towns / small areas - often you see the same people at the bus stop or on the train. It isn't the wild, unlawful, hell hole that the daily mail would have you believe.

’Stay with your buggy” means don’t park it in the buggy space and go and sit in a seat at the back of the bus, op.
Not don’t take the 5 seconds necessary to go and tap your card. I think you probably knew that, though.

Because it's a fairly standard practise on a London bus to avoid the very problem that the OP had.

Yes! It's nice to see some common sense on this thread!

Yes, exactly!

Glad you've also seen the card passed down the aisle OP!

100% this.

The entitlement because "I'm a MOTHER!" is outrageous.

I have a disability which means it is as hard for me to get on in the back and walk to the front to tap in, but I do it. The children will be fine for 10 seconds, and the OP could get the three year old to do it as she watches. The child learns how to walk on a bus, is in eyesight and it's an exciting thing like pressing the lift button. No-one is going to abuse or kidnap a child in 10 seconds on a busy bus.

@RetiredFromExplaining Actually, no, the children may not be fine for the '10 seconds' the OP is at the front of the bus (it will be more than that if the aisle is heaving). As many others have said, drivers often pull away from bus stops very quickly and the prams can tip over in an instant. A 3yr old is generally not strong enough to keep themselves and a buggy with a younger sibling upright in a jerky moving vehicle. (Ditto for walking through a crowded aisle.) Both ex and DS in his wheelchair fell over not long ago when a bus pulled away before they were safely in the wheelchair space.

Also, unfortunately, it is possible to abuse or kidnap a child on a busy bus. I'd be more worried about the children falling over, but other threats are also possible.

You could do this thing that is not just for northerners called speaking to people, politely saying 'excuse me', and getting to the front to avoid what is theft by another name.

None of that excuses fare-dodging. Millions of bus journeys are taken every day on London buses by women with children and buggies. Somehow they manage it but the OP can't. 🤔

@RetiredFromExplaining The OP made a risk assessment. You may have assessed the risk differently; I think the OP was reasonable under the circumstances, as I think safety trumps profit. TfL has no doubt got a bean counter somewhere who assessed the number of likely accidents, the number of those people who would bring a claim against them, the number of those who would win (and what the likely financial penalty would be) and decided they'd rather a percentage of people were injured than the organisation miss out on whatever they calculated as the potential amount of fare dodgers that would take advantage of maintaining multiple payment points (as there used to be on some buses).

Good to know you endorse stealing. There is no excuse. Inspectors have zero tolerance for those who don't tap in.

What's next, just take a small item from a supermarket? After all, it's not really stealing, they can afford it. Not paying for car insurance? Chances of having an accident are really small, after all.

I can't stand it when people make excuses for not paying their way.

It is totally stealing. Pay your fare. 🙄