AIBU to think of course all the anti-trans posts on this website and others are leading to real life harm?

[helpfulucy]

Just seen a video of a trans woman minding her business in a train station getting horribly bullied by some Tommy Robinson wanna-be and couldn't help but think back to all the aggressive threads I've seen on Mumsnet.

Pages and pages of vilifying innocent trans people, calling them perverts and all sorts with zero evidence of anything of the sort of course would lead to people like this harassing and attacking trans people in public. I've see a few of so-called GC brigade say 'this isn't what we wanted' but it is the end, isn't it? If you do see trans people as disgusting abusive perverts trying to sneak into your changing rooms and hurt your daughter, you'd want them to be bashed in public yeah?

Am I wrong to think their chickens are coming home to roost and certain posters will want to claim they never had a hand in it all?

Never point out that men commit most violence, almost all sexual violence, and have been shitty to women for years.

(I'm wondering exactly which fact mumsnet objected too).

Sexism. We despise sexism. Even if it's wearing a dress.

You are kidding, right?

Women are already being attacked, raped and murdered by men. At an incredible rate in some places. That's the whole point of a risk assessment that says adult human females are allowed private spaces away from adult human males. It really doesn't matter how they dress, or what they think they look like - trans identified men are still MEN. The offend at the same rate as men, and in the same way.

And it's your privilege that you can only consider public toilets, and not the prisons, shelters, hospital wards, where extremely vulnerable women might be, that let males in so long as they say the right thing.

There's been another of those Pélicot incidents.
Or is 'harm' going to be redefined in newspeak to only be harm when it is only the great holy MEN that are harmed?

Or has that already happened?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cmp3042q6w3zo

Oh do curb the melodramatics, it’s just embarassing

i personally dream of a world where men stop appropriating my sex, and because I don’t clap along saying things like “The dolls are welcome”, I’m called a bigot.

I also dream of a world where men can wear whatever they want without being picked on and bullied.

Always fascinated to know at what point women and gay people (because the sex based legal protections were identified as essential for them too in law at the Supreme Court) having legal protections and equality became a 'far right' thing.

And when women and gay oppression became a left wing value and aspiration.

It's bobbins of course. You only have to skim FWR for ten minutes to know the general beliefs reflect centrist/centre left in the main, and many openly explain they are left wing and politically homeless because the left have galloped into the distance shouting whoopee misogyny!

The 'far right' label is about on a par with your two year old calling you 'poo poo head'. Words actually have meaning. Not just vibes.

BTW OP do you care about the hundreds of actual women who get harassed on public transport every day?

I suspect not.

And BTW, a hallmark of misogyny is blaming the next woman when a man behaves badly. The video you describe is a man harassing another man. It is not the fault of women and it’s certainly not women’s problem to solve

The accusations that seek to align feminists and women’s and girl’s rights campaigners as being far right or right wing in the UK is just lazy people seeking to polarise opinions that are across the political spectrum.

Let’s not forget the left wing feminists in the UK who started the discussion. It is hardly likely that many of those who vote left will have changed political alignment.

Of course, because it is supported by a broad spectrum of political views, that fact is used to demonise those who are not right wing at all by falsely focusing on that end of the spectrum. It is tribalism in action. It says more about the accuser’s approach to politics than it does about the political views of those who support female single sex provisions excluding all male people (obviously not excluding male children when they should be accompanied).

Most of the debate here is ok, because it focuses o legitimate women's rights but there is still quite a lot of the 'cross dressing is a dirty fetish' narrative here, which I find really offensive. That tars trans people with the same brush , and is just not the case.

Maybe they need to stop turning up at childrens charity events with black dildos sticking out their dress? Just a suggestion.

But you do understand that some of the men who claim to be trans are cross dressing fetishists? Are we to just not mention that fact? Its these ones that are the problem, which is why it needs talked about.

It is always a very lazy distraction tactic to accuse women of not focusing where someone personally feels women should be focusing. It is like a combination of infantilising misogyny.

Women - we want to discuss this issue that negatively impacts a wide range of aspects of the lives of all female people!

Those who seek to distract - you are not worthy of having your issue discussed because you have not fixed all these other issues that ‘I’ believe are more important and you are obviously incapable of actively supporting more than one aspect of women’s and girl’s campaigning at a time.’!

It is such a weak ‘look over there, not here’’ tactic.

Transwomen who stay out of women's spacea are not an issue. Nobody bloody cares what men choose to wear, so long as they're not bothering women and not trying to undermine women's rights.

Indeed.

Some change username for every thread they post on.

Can you accept that cross dressing is a fetish for a considerable amount of men?

through all this trans panic, SA rates have in fact not gone down.

OP, are you serious? Of course rates of sexual abuse haven’t dropped during a period when trans-identifying men have been encouraged by their aggressive fans to trample on women’s boundaries. How could it?

Did you miss the report that 62% of trans-identifying male convicts are in prison for sexual assaults? That’s far higher than the ratio for other men.
See transcrimeuk.com for hundreds of court cases.

The men you misrepresent as harmless victims are even more dangerous to women than other men. That’s partly because they are more likely to trespass in our spaces. Partly also because of the vitriolic rage they stir up and pour out against women.
See terfisaslur.com for levels of abuse, including reams of death threats, that would bring the police out in force if women dared to make them. They are of course made by transactivists against women, often in public.

I’m also very interested to hear replies to this … I’ll get comfortable though as there could be quite a wait

Presumably you understand that the tarring of trans people with the ‘dirty fetish’ brush is a direct result of TRAs (and aligned organisations such as Stonewall) actively trying to elide and obfuscate definitions and labels?

It’s been their aim to ensure that fetishists and paraphiliacs (who represent an exponentially greater threat to women and children than fully gender reassigned trans people) are welcomed to self-identify as women - and thereby gain access to protected single sex spaces - under the great Be Kind Umbrella of Inclusiveness.

A large component of their ideological project has been effectively transwashing away any whiff of sexual impropriety or the potential danger many of these men present. I agree the labelling of the whole demographic is unfair - but that point of view was certainly not instigated by Mumsnet, or women in general, to start with. It was championed by the people who unilaterally redefined transwomen in the first place.

They’ve scrubbed my post but not your reply so I’ll explain my point rather than be accused of implying things.

Not sure what Mumsnet has an issue with. Stonewall itself included transvestites under their ‘trans umbrella’. Remember that graphic? Usually twinned with a No Debate message.

So, evidence from Stonewall.

Cross-dressing is a male fetish. It’s up there with voyeurism and feet.

Interviews given by high profile transwomen often report their descriptions of a sexual impulse that led them to, as they see it, present as female.

I really don’t see how you can argue that, for some, it’s not sexually motivated in which case what sort of reaction are you expecting from other men and why do you think that’s got anything to do with women?

No one should be thumped or filmed being bullied but present yourself a certain way, whether it’s a home-made uniform, not enough clothes, or attempting to ape the opposite sex, then you will get a reaction. It may not be kind and it might well be people laughing at you.

Grayson Perry wrote in his autobiography that he got off on the humiliation when people reacted to his appearance. Some of these individuals don’t want you to be kind.

It’s a choice for some and, clearly, a compulsion for others. And as the film of the two men in the station seems to illustrate, it often doesn’t look like much fun but who knows.

Just out of interest: where are all the 'not in my name' posts and articles from the people with gender identities? The ones saying the rapes and assaults are atrocious? The ones saying women need equality and access which requires sex based rights without a man wanking in a cubicle with the door open while shouting 'I'm a woman, you can't stop me'?

Where are the tv interviews saying 'this is aberant, antisocial behaviour, it is NOT what being transgender is about'?

The voices and presence standing up for women to have accessible rape crisis services and refuges, joining the marches and the protests? The ones supporting lesbians to have the right to same sex homosexuality without being called 'sexual racists'?

Where have we seen politicians carefully separate themselves from men with trans identities with open and quite alarming sexual offending records and histories, and be clear that they do not support that behaviour towards women and children as part of supporting LGBT+?

Anyone?

We can tell by their head shape and size, their shoulders and pelvis also by their gait all of which cannot be changed or hidden as they are part of the male skeleton which are completely different from the female skeleton.
Women are hardwired to recognise males regardless of how they dress through millennia of evolutionary selection as the women who couldn't recognise the males quickly enough often died but those who could had a better chance of survival. Its that simple and also explains why men are so poor at recognising the differences as they never needed to.
Oh BTW your bs line about plenty of women being judged for not conforming to traditional gender stereotypes is a classic case of darvo as its gender ideology that claims that they way you dress makes you a woman or not

Transmen ie women so they were correctly sexed just misgendered due to gender ideology which sort of disproves your point

It's not a plop and run I just had a family to give dinner to and put to bed. Sorry not all of us are glued to the board all hours of the day.

So to answer some replies

1. I specified it wasn't just mumsnet adding to the vitriol but also several sites like it. The idea that hateful posting on the internet hasn't lead to real world harm in a number of ways for several groups of minorities is preposterous and dangerous to ignore how we got to where we are.

2.I personally believe that often times women are erased from social movements, including the bad ones. I'm sure many of the racist thugs marching against immigrants have wives/girlfriends who agree with them but just had to stay home for one reason or another so yes I think certain women play a part in how violent men behave. Maybe if women stopped breeding with them their penchant for violence might disappear.

3.Of course I care about women being harassed in public but going after trans people does sod all to help them. My honest opinion is that all this energy towards trans people and how they need to be banned to keep woman and girls safe is just a distraction to help some women pretend they can protect themselves from SA. When the truth is, it's basically legal in this country. With a less than 2% the fact is there is very little reason for predatory men not to do what they like, and no sign on a door will stop them.

Now I don't know about the rest of you, but I have work in the morning so will be signing off for the night.

Yes SA is practically legalised. This is a sad fact. And it’s Because men treat women appallingly, with violence hatred and abuse.

So WHY on EARTH would women actively want predatory men in their spaces? And yes, if you’re a man unlawfully barging your way into women’s spaces, knowing you’re not wanted, you’re a predator. Don’t you think we have a right to object to this and have our legal rights protected?

If men are harassing other men like in the video OP describes, then it’s for men to sort out. Us women have enough problems without being expected to stand up for the very people that oppress us.