Help protect children from gaming harms.

Take our survey

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to stop helping after injuring myself lifting elderly neighbour?

158 replies

Barney221 · Yesterday 21:11

We are a rural road of 5 houses. One house is lived in by an elderly couple one of which has dementia and the other is paralyzed. Over the last few years the gentleman who is paralyzed has fallen frequently and the rest of us have been called and gone and picked him up. We are all 60 plus except for one lad in his 20s.

This afternoon all the male members of the 3 closest homes were out. He fell from his wheelchair in his mobility van and as the only 2 people available my female neighbour and I were summoned by his wife. She and I couldn't get him up so rang another elderly male neighbour. He came and he worked from the front whilst I pulled him from the back. We got him into the wheelchair but it then slipped back into me propelling me backwards down the ramp and off it onto the tarmac drive. Hes fine but I've had to go to a and e and I've got ruptured ligaments in one knee and bruising rand cuts to both and I'm struggling to walk. I'm unlikely to be able to drive for a few days and I'm self employed.

My husband is livid and is saying that he will call the couples kids tomorrow and tell them we are no longer available to pick him up. This will include DHs brother who Is one of 5 houses. Is that unreasonable?

OP posts:
YourRedLurker · Today 11:33

diddledoodum · Today 10:45

I disagree. I know that paramedics will too and tail someone, I’ve seen it done. I’m surprised to hear that you don’t get any additional training.

But I disagree with there being an expectation that paid carers should life someone who has fallen. A 40kg dead weight is huge. As long as the carers did what they could to help the person help themselves (the backward chaining I mentioned earlier on), and of not possible then called 999, made them comfortable and arranged for them to be looked after until the paramedics arrived, they would have done their duty. Of course they may need to attend coroners court but that doesn’t mean they would have been in any way responsible for the persons death.

Carers absolutely shoukd not be lifting people off the floor in any circumstances.

If no carers lifted in any circumstances then wait times would be measured in days for ambulances and the harm would be huge.

Carers are lifting all the time - we have an urgent care line in the operations centre for them to call directly if they feel they need permission/cover first - essentially can you provide a triage for the patient and tell us it's safe to lift them/support them up and we will do.

Yep we have no training in lifting manually - it's just on the job learning really. In terms of kit we get trained to use scoop stretcher (generally only used in major trauma/RTC), manger elk or razor chair to lift in a home, slide sheet to get them onto it. But they all only work in an open space - we would absolutely use them in an open space because much safer - but otherwise it's just grab what you can reach and pull. There's no training for that, partly because training probably wouldn't change how people did it - it's just how you pick a kid up from the floor/common sense really, and also because they don't want to acknowledge it happens/it never sounds great in writing and absolutely ultimately there is risk to the person doing the lift - but also radio silence on how do you get someone up when they've fallen in a tiny bathroom and no room for any kit at all. I

In care home setting you have the space - but if you have to wait hours for ambulance crew then that's a lot of unnecessary suffering if staff have some kit of are physically able to lift.

In the eoc now if in a fall in a care home setting (so you know more than one member of staff etc not talking about a random on the street in their own), if in triage theres no obvious injury identified we will ask staff to lift the resident themselves - if they refuse we ask why and highlight that leaving them on the floor can result in serious harm, if the refusal is based around policy or just staff refusal then we have to document name/manager - because it is a refusal to render first aid to someone they have a duty of care over.

Of course if the carer says "can't because our lifting cushion broke this morning and the resident weighs 120kg" then that's just unfortunate. But if it's either a care home who hasn't brought any lifting kit - despite charging thousands in fees per week - that's negligent. If refusing to lift because they're not comfortable in taking that on themselves - you're right probably nothing will come of that but they could absolutely be told that this was the contributor to death in coroner's if it led to rhabdomyolysis (injury from a long lie, generally considered more than an hour, that leads to muscle breakdown - kidney failure). Legally speaking if you've got a duty of care you're taking more risk in refusing to help then in helping and causing another injury in doing so I.e skin tear etc.

What if a paramedic turns up and they're >90kg in a tiny space can't get any lifting kit in - imagine if we refused! If you have a duty of care you've got to render aid where able. If a resident/patient was light then that's very different to a weight that clearly can't be lifted by hand - we quite often goto people now >120kg who've had a life threatening medical event if they can't stand/get out, or transfer to a carry chair, or be in a position that we can get lifting kit in - essentially if they die due to delay getting them out it's unfortunate but just what it is. If the person was 40kg then I'm not sure how youd justify watching them die in the chair instead of top and tailing them onto a carry chair/pulling them out the building.

godmum56 · Today 11:37

AprilMizzel · Today 11:19

That's good.

MIL was helping her neigbour and stoppe during covid due to risks - couple got very nasty and later turned out their kids had been trying to get help in the house and it had all be turned down by couple becuase with MIL help they coped.

If you do not get a good reponse from kids who may be in denial - Adult Social Care would be the next step.

You will be asked if you have the persons permission to discuss it. If someone is competent, they wont even visit without the persons agreement

YourRedLurker · Today 11:45

godmum56 · Today 11:30

A few things to stay here. I have twice known a person walk on a fractured femur. In one case, I have done a complete home assessment including two car rides. In both cases they said they "ached a bit" and there were no external symptoms at the time. Its entirely possible for someone to make a wrong judgement about their own physical state.
I get that carers work in people's homes and sometimes places are cluttered and inaccessible (falls in bathrooms and loos....nighmare, especially if the door opens inwards). The thing with paid carers is that they must operate within the T and C of their employment and the users of that service should understand those as well. If it ever did go to court, which I doubt, then the carers are more likely to be protected if they were operating within their training and the T's and C's of their employer.
Actually the "paid carer" thing goes further than that. In the NHS, if things do go wrong, the best protection that an employee has is that they were working within the rules of what they can and cannot do. Qualified clinicians additionally may adduce "Clinical Judgement" to break the rules but in that case they need to be able to demonstrate the chain of their clinical reasoning. So you might say eg " they were stuck under the bed and we were unable to move the bed without risking the bed collapsing"

I'm not sure your first point is too relevant - that tolerable ache with normal leg movements on floor that turns into a nof# it's still completely fine to get them up without it being some kind of specialist operation. I was differentiating the patient who was obviously injured/severe pain - because it's pretty rare anyone's going to try and lift this person themselves/clear benefit to ambulance assistance.

When triaging on the phone with carers following them getting them up the next step is a mobility assessment - I.e. limp/not happy to stand and walk themselves/doesn't look right - then further assessment is arranged - if care home that'll probably be ambulance, if in a home itll be - can you get them in a car to a&e, but if not ambulance - but in both cases they can now wait in a chair/bed not laid on floor. If they seem fine then worsening advice is given/onwards monitoring and when they should call back.

Bobcurlygirl · Today 11:45

OneLilacHedgehog · Today 10:11

Sheltered housing won't stop falls. It's a warden about who would call an ambulance, that is all. Care homes have more aids to prevent falls, but cannot stop them.

I didn't say it would stop falls but they are better managed to detect and help. My aunt lives in one, they wear a bracelet that connects to something and alerts the nearby care home if she falls. She doesn't even need to sound the alarm it's all automatic. The care home send someone to assess and whether they can help her up or call the ambulance.

diddledoodum · Today 11:59

YourRedLurker · Today 11:33

If no carers lifted in any circumstances then wait times would be measured in days for ambulances and the harm would be huge.

Carers are lifting all the time - we have an urgent care line in the operations centre for them to call directly if they feel they need permission/cover first - essentially can you provide a triage for the patient and tell us it's safe to lift them/support them up and we will do.

Yep we have no training in lifting manually - it's just on the job learning really. In terms of kit we get trained to use scoop stretcher (generally only used in major trauma/RTC), manger elk or razor chair to lift in a home, slide sheet to get them onto it. But they all only work in an open space - we would absolutely use them in an open space because much safer - but otherwise it's just grab what you can reach and pull. There's no training for that, partly because training probably wouldn't change how people did it - it's just how you pick a kid up from the floor/common sense really, and also because they don't want to acknowledge it happens/it never sounds great in writing and absolutely ultimately there is risk to the person doing the lift - but also radio silence on how do you get someone up when they've fallen in a tiny bathroom and no room for any kit at all. I

In care home setting you have the space - but if you have to wait hours for ambulance crew then that's a lot of unnecessary suffering if staff have some kit of are physically able to lift.

In the eoc now if in a fall in a care home setting (so you know more than one member of staff etc not talking about a random on the street in their own), if in triage theres no obvious injury identified we will ask staff to lift the resident themselves - if they refuse we ask why and highlight that leaving them on the floor can result in serious harm, if the refusal is based around policy or just staff refusal then we have to document name/manager - because it is a refusal to render first aid to someone they have a duty of care over.

Of course if the carer says "can't because our lifting cushion broke this morning and the resident weighs 120kg" then that's just unfortunate. But if it's either a care home who hasn't brought any lifting kit - despite charging thousands in fees per week - that's negligent. If refusing to lift because they're not comfortable in taking that on themselves - you're right probably nothing will come of that but they could absolutely be told that this was the contributor to death in coroner's if it led to rhabdomyolysis (injury from a long lie, generally considered more than an hour, that leads to muscle breakdown - kidney failure). Legally speaking if you've got a duty of care you're taking more risk in refusing to help then in helping and causing another injury in doing so I.e skin tear etc.

What if a paramedic turns up and they're >90kg in a tiny space can't get any lifting kit in - imagine if we refused! If you have a duty of care you've got to render aid where able. If a resident/patient was light then that's very different to a weight that clearly can't be lifted by hand - we quite often goto people now >120kg who've had a life threatening medical event if they can't stand/get out, or transfer to a carry chair, or be in a position that we can get lifting kit in - essentially if they die due to delay getting them out it's unfortunate but just what it is. If the person was 40kg then I'm not sure how youd justify watching them die in the chair instead of top and tailing them onto a carry chair/pulling them out the building.

I think you saying that you’d tell carers to lift someone is possibly misleading. However small a person is, if they are a dead weight and and completely unable to assist to move themselves, then carers could not safely get them up from the floor without using equipment (hoist, lifting cushion, sliding sheets etc). In a care home, I would expect them to have access to these things and to use them as appropriate. . In a persons home, they most likely won’t have them. Wouldn’t establishing this be part of your triage? Are you not giving guidance to the carers on how to utilise techniques that utilise the person’s strength and movement along with any available equipment to support backward chaining to get them up? Not literally drag lifting a dead weight off the floor into a chair?
I’ve been doing my job for a very long time and I have never known a paramedic triage advise that a person be lifted in these circumstances.

Maisymouse2 · Today 12:05

Does he nit have a belt to hold him into the wheelchair?
Surely a medical alert or some such for them would be safer?

Ohwhatfuckeryitistoride · Today 12:16

I'd also make sure all your neighbours are on the same page. Imagine if someone felt pressured into doing something alone. The injuries to both parties could be catastrophic.
Does the second person on the house have capacity to understand how serious their situation is? Maybe a call to adult social care for a welfare check? (If a non related person can do that and if welfare checks teams exist)

YourRedLurker · Today 12:24

diddledoodum · Today 11:59

I think you saying that you’d tell carers to lift someone is possibly misleading. However small a person is, if they are a dead weight and and completely unable to assist to move themselves, then carers could not safely get them up from the floor without using equipment (hoist, lifting cushion, sliding sheets etc). In a care home, I would expect them to have access to these things and to use them as appropriate. . In a persons home, they most likely won’t have them. Wouldn’t establishing this be part of your triage? Are you not giving guidance to the carers on how to utilise techniques that utilise the person’s strength and movement along with any available equipment to support backward chaining to get them up? Not literally drag lifting a dead weight off the floor into a chair?
I’ve been doing my job for a very long time and I have never known a paramedic triage advise that a person be lifted in these circumstances.

Not being in the room there's too many variables for how to get someone up, and absolutely they should have that kit on hand but they shouldn't need me to try to tell them how to use it - the carer can use their training/previous experience to best address this i.e. they're going to have far more knowledge of their capabilities. If they say they can't do it and explain why then either we might be able to give a suggestion based on that, or they're unable and the resident will just have to wait on the floor.

In my experience that part has never been an issue, it's that the carer feels they need a name/authorisation to help the person up. It's not uncommon for it to sound like they're actively restraining someone who's trying to get up! (Care plan says speak to 999 before getting them up after fall). We also now get a lot of falls reporting - i.e. Dorris had unwitnessed fall from bed this morning - we lifted her up and seems fine just having breakfast now - do you want to come see her to check for injuries... I.e. a minimum wage work with a first aid certificate being asked to take on a huge responsibility for these frail residents, 'can you give me some cover/piece of mind please if anyone pops a complaint in later or it turns out tomorrow xyz occurs and I never called anyone....' Which I'm absolutely fine happy to support/and completely on board with - normally no visit required but occasionally it is.

We (ambulance service) barely have capacity to get to immediately life threatening emergencies - strokes and heart attacks waiting over an hour routinely, rtcs with fatalities, cardiac arrest 15-20min responses for ambulance relying on first aiders/volunteers to take up the slack on these jobs... We can't lift every frail person who falls to 'check them out' despite no outward sign of injury illness.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page