DD overdose. The system is broken? Any advice?

[BeethovenNinth]

I have posted about DD before. Broken by lockdown, anorexia age 12, school drop out, burn out, self harm extreme. We are five years in.

we have repeatedly been told she doesn’t qualify for help and have tried various therapists ourselves.

she is out of school and self learning. Very lonely. Seems ok recently ot so I thought.

due to intense sadness last night she took an overdose of aspirin. I suspect a cry for help and she phoned childline who got her to phone 111. (She didn’t think to wake any of us). I suspect A and E will just kick us out soon.

we are a loving family but this is a huge setback.

we are Edinburgh based, desperate desperate for the right help.

private psychiatrist? Do we suggest sertraline? Anyone in Scotland have any good suggestions?

thanks from a broken mother

Because maybe she isnt autistic, having only some neurodivergent traits??

Yes, definitely this. Not longvago I remember reading a report from a psychiatrist who said no teenager should have access to drugs like aspirin etc as most teen suicides fro overdoses are actually done on impulse, even by seemingly well adjusted teens.
Please make sure you have no.paracetomol in her reach too as that stuff is deadly in large doses.

My advice to any parent dealing with CAMHS, is to confirm everything they tell you back to them in writing. Note the name of the clinician, date, time, qdvice given and timescales advised. Send it by royal mail and special delivery.

In my experience they were disingenuous, lying toerags endeavouring to cover their own backsides and to do as little as possible. One individual gave me specific advice re intervention and time frame and then denied it. An audit trail is essential.

So true @RosesAndHellebores

My DD took an OD and CAMHS finally saw her. She walked into the room and the woman looked her up and down, crossed her arms and said, in the most snotty tone imaginable ‘what’s wrong with you then? Why did you try and kill yourself?’

I wish I had complained but we were completely overwhelmed at the time trying to keep our daughter alive.

They are the most jaded cynical useless fuckers; the head of psychiatry at my local trust said they’ll do everything in their power to get kids off of their lists and hope they can palm them off to adult services.

Its despicable.

OP, I'm so sorry for your poor girl. I'm not an expert but adding in case it's helpful alongside the other more informed replied here - have you considered whether her mood problems could be hormonally linked? I suffered such severe PMS as a teen that it made me near suicidal. The only thing that corrected it was being on a strong hormonal contraceptive pill, which was an absolute game changer. I only mention it because you said this started for your daughter in high school. I hope not an offensive suggestion as I don't want to trivialise her difficulties but maybe it's an avenue to explore?

I wish I had more to offer but couldn’t say nothing. My daughter is 13 and had a rough, rough time of it around 11 when ending primary and starting secondary. We are 99% sure she’s autistic - typical girl presentation that looks a lot like anxiety then ends up being more about sensory challenges. On year 3 of the waitlist for an assessment but the CAHMS therapist we saw for a few months for anxiety took me aside to ‘confirm’ (unofficially). It’s absolutely insane how slow and endless and ultimately useless CAHMS is.

This is good advice, a email trail will do. Camhs for us have caused more harm than helped.

But all children's services are pretty much the same. I told my sons children with disabilities socail care team.i had a very detailed plan to run away and not be traced by card use or apnar. They said it was a good idea! My son is saying her hears voices telling him to di bad things. Camhs say this is normal for kids with ASD. So I wrote them a disclaimer in case he throws a kid off the tate or into a crocodile pit. My exact words. Sorry no offence to those two babies but wtf do you do in these circumstances?

Also re wanting to end things yourself. I get that. But I don't admit that to anyone. It's draining and the more you care the less help you get

I don't know if this is a helpful suggestion, but I'd try to get her into horses. I have limited knowledge, but I do have family who ride. It's exactly what I'd try with my DD.

There are places that work with ND and disabled children, but a regular 'yard' might be good enough.

It'd be fresh air and exercise, which we're told are big helps (not sure I always agree all the time). She could develop a bond with and focus on a living, breathing creature—plus if she likes it, it provides a small window of hope, a sort of light from the darkness of her depression. A bit of a distraction from her anxiety, etc. Importantly, the chance to boost confidence, learn a skill, meet new people, etc.

I am sure she'll say no. I do know people with MH that it's helped, the special bond, the work, the lessons. The purpose of having to go somewhere and do something.

Just an idea, as she loves animals. Sorry if not helpful.

Thanks all. This has got me through a dark day.

DH is with her now and the ward won’t discharge until her bloods stabilise. The lovely male nurse got an adult doctor to speak to DH just in case adult psychiatry can help but I suspect not.

we chatted about a short break - she loves York - and she really brightened at that so great suggestion. We also discussed joining a gym to get her out the house in the day.

and of course I now enter the world of private psychiatry so I have a few suggestions and huge thanks.

I am worried I won’t sleep again for fear she does this again. I am on the edge and it’s desperately lonely as I don’t want to tell friends this latest setback.

autism - zero signs as a baby and child? Up to age 12? Is that possible? Again and again I don’t understand.

one day I will have the energy to fight the system but not today. There are so many broken teens and young people

PMDD

I also ended up going on the pill for similar, and as an adult have tracked and noticed my anxiety flares up on certain days of the month, I start feeling awful about myself and everyone about 10 days before my period is due.

Tracking it to my cycle has actually been the single most heplful thing I've ever done because now I know it's not 'me'. It hasn't taken the anxiety away but I know I don't have to trust it now.

Thanks unicorn. This might make you laugh but we tried it and they were too “hairy”. I loved it. We have tried so so much….

Honestly just try medication. It can be the fasted thing to take effect. Therapy etc can follow.

Agree on this too. We were on the waiting list for ages, called regularly to find out how long it would be and after 2 years contacted our MSP (Daniel Johnson) who was told we had asked to be removed from the waiting list. Total lies! And 10 days later we got an appointment.

Yes they’re under pressure but they also lie through their teeth.

It’s good that she’s brightened at the idea of some plans.

On the autism thing - there were things looking back which I now think, oh that was a trait, but it’s just so different in girls that it’s hard to imagine until you are forced to. Things like low self esteem, awkward on play dates, a stammer which came and went, etc.

Dear OP
I did not read all the posts. But I was like your daughter from 14-18. I still have scars I have to hide at work and still take a combo of ssri and other antidepressants.
I can't say what helped me eventually but I will forever be grateful to my parents for being there and not giving up and they were very close to that point. I was also groomed from a young age, unbeknownst to them till this day, and used drugs with him and others. That was the tipping point for me to drop out of school.

One thing for me is that almost all cutting and od'ing as well as other destruction took place in the 10 days before my period. I had severe pmdd but was not diagnosed. Worth looking into imo.

I also suspect I'm autistic but in those days 40 years ago that was completely overlooked. I had ed and weighed 40 kg. Not life endangering but id smoke 2 packs a day and take speed to keep my weight down. Never diagnosed either. Those were the heroin chique days.

What eventually shook was awake was od'ing on paracetamol and nearly dying. I was not - as many teens - aware that you could actually get liver damage and die many days after the od even after having uiur stomach pumped. After my release from icu I ended up in a horrible psych ward for 4 days with all the adults. It was so awful that I never tried to do that again. I wish someone had told me then that scars are forever. I've had treatment to remove mine. Didn't help.
I have been very selfish as a teen and extremely desperate. But I have been fine, minus postpartum depression after my firstborn, for many years since then. Ups and downs but nothing as devastating. I hope I have made it up to my parents. I do my best.
Sending you strength. 💓

Gosh, I forgot this Dd did have DbT and we did the parent's course. I think it was helpful and I think she still uses it.

dd was out of school for a year, adamant she was going back, although we thought she wasn’t ready. Medication is different for different people, but our d pretended to take it, and even though I watched her take it, she wouldn’t swallow. I couldn’t believe she had done this.

shw is now at uni, and generally doing better. But there are unfortunate regressions to self harm, once being hospitalised when she called campus security because she had kinda freaked herself out.

it’s such a lonely journey also as a parent. My heart breaks in a million pieces every time she self harms again. I wish she would just call me when she feels this way.

This is what my DH thought of himself for 35 years before being diagnosed - the lack of diagnosis resulting in multiple periods of depression and low self esteem throughout his teens and 20s and him coming to the conclusion that he was essentially a bad person - it is a valid question to ask and asking it of him changed his life

id like to recommend equine therapy!

I was exactly the same. I'm in my 40s now and it's no longer an issue, but I for years whenever I was inexplicably down the first thing I would do was go and check how many pills I had left in the pack. It would tell me whether I was in the PMS phase or not and I almost invariably would be. It enabled me to separate out / wait out low periods because I knew there was a deadline for feeling completely different.

So sorry OP - it’s a hard road.
in our case CAHMS prescribed anti-depressants and the GP took over.
Once they get to 18 GPs much more helpful in that department although some (not many) will prescribe to under 18s.
If CAMHS are reluctant to prescribe then private is the way to go - choose one with significant experience of neurodivergence. they can do a full psychiatric assessment. This is not cheap but worth it if you find the right person.
CBT can do more harm than good for those with ND traits. A ND therapist or one with at least some lived experience will be much more adaptable.
I despair at the NHS mental health services. It’s failed just about every kid I know who has struggled.

It is a valid question to ask but not imho in this instance. I am fwiw autistic. No one noticed when I was a child but all the signs were there.
The way I read the ops comment was that she had already established that her dd is not autistic hence she said “she isn’t autistic but has some neurodivergent traits”. It’s a tiresome trend on MN that people so often see possible autism whenever someone’s behaviour is a bit out of kilter.

Can you try the Edinburgh Practice or in Glasgow, Diverse diagnosis. They have clinical psychiatrists who can help.

I guess the issue here is that OP doesn't know either way because her daughter has never been assessed, despite having some autistic traits. It seems to me that it would be worthwhile exploring given the background because OP could take her down certain routes which may or may not be appropriate if she does have autism.

My daughters both have autism. They are late 20s now and I know many girls with autism. Several weren't diagnosed until they crashed at university. It is just so easy to miss in girls.

My younger daughter was first tentatively diagnosed aged 7. Well, a paediatrician mentioned PDA. Later on in year 5 she ended up at CAMHS and they didn't believe it. She was too sociable, too creative in her play. So they assessed her - and she came out with an asd diagnosis with PDA.

They were shocked. Anyway, I handed the diagnosis papers to school. Her teacher told me he didn't think she was autistic. He commented how chatty and sociable she was - but it was over the top and often inappropriate compared to the other children. I think of Robbie Williams being diagnosed - very similar presentation, and so many people saying "he's not autistic".

I guess I am just saying, I would want to know, get it out of the way, then if no autism, focus on the mental health.

If you look at statistics on children who are struggling with ebsa (emotionally based school avoidance) the vast majority are neurodivergent (92.1%) with 83.4% autistic.

If you look at groups like 'not fine in school' again the vast majority are ND or awaiting assessment.

So statistically she is more likely to be autistic than not. There is also an acknowledged issue that autism is highly genetic and so traits in children can be dismissed as normal when parents may also be autistic. Which is why so many parent (inclduing myself) realise they are ND when their children are diagnosed.

And even if she is, the depression/anxiety needs treatment. A diagnosis wont suddenly change how she feels or how she responds, even if she understands why she is like this. Understanding how you feel, doesnt stop you changing that. We have a number of children and teens at work who are ND of a variety of flavours and on a mixture of medication dependent on what their actual symptom is, not their diagnosis as such. So some are on anti psychotics to stabilise mood, some are on ADHD, some are on melatonin, some are on ADs, some are on a mixture of all of them, some are on solo medications. All of it is trial and error Im afraid. None of them have formal MH diagnoses, only ND diagnoses because CAMHS are very cautious (too cautious in my view) of diagnosing MH conditions in children.