To think that a comfortable middle class existence is basically unattainable for the vast majority of people.

[joelm1776]

I was thinking today about how much someone would actually need to earn per year in order to have a traditionally financially comfortable middle class existence. This, to me, means having a family one parent being able to look after the kids, being financially secure and having some pleasures in one's life on a regular basis but not necessarily any extravagant pleasures ie. not having multiple holidays a year, or luxury items or fine dining meals out. I know these things are fairly subjective, but I would like to think that my judgements here are quite middle of the road. I'll show you my working:

2 parents and 2 child household

1. £17,000 per year in mortgage payments for a 3 bedroom house (average price of a 3 bedroom house in the UK is about £275,0000)
2. £8,300 per year in supermarket shopping
3. £5,500 rough estimate for running 2 cars per year (one for commuting one for short journeys) including fuel, tax, MOT, insurance and maintenance.
4. £5,000 utilities, internet and council tax for 3 bedroom house
5. £1,000 per year on clothing (£20 per person per month)
6. £2,500 repairs and long term replacement fund for house.
7. £2,000 student debt
8. £6,000 one family meal out at a mid-range restaurant per week
9. £1400 2 night out for drinks with friends per month for each parent.
10. £3,000 one week family holiday to mainland European destination per year.
11. £1,500 pocket money for kids
12. £1,200 sports clubs and gyms memberships
13. £1,500 general household items excluding clothing and food
14. £2250 large purchase fund (e.g two cars lasting 15 years each, 4 smartphones lasting 5 years each etc)
15. £2,000 saved for other contingencies

Total = £60150 net + 7.5% saved as a pension = aprox £64650
Total gross = £94000

so basically you need to earn £100K even if you don't live in London, and only the top 5% of uk earners earn around this amount and most of those people probably work in London.

I know the the mortgage figure ignores the fact that people often have equity from other properties, but that makes the calculation a bit too complex

Lol yes it is. As is the 1.5k pocket money for the kids and the eating out once a week and the idea that one salary should support 2 adults in finitum. The last time when that sort of lifestyle was possible was pre 1939s when it was subsidised by the labour of a vast population of working poor (both in the UK and abroad). Are you proposing we go back to those times?

I'm fascinated by your choice of things that make a middle class lifestyle, or rather by the absence of

• tutors /private education
• hobbies/classes /sports kit

These take up a huge amount of our budget, and I would say are pretty integral to a middle class lifestyle

I don't think a parent needs to stay home beyond the baby years though, there are heaps of MC jobs that allow you to work flexibly eg school day only hours or similar. I always did school pick up then worked again when the children were in bed (I'm a solicitor)

Cinema was cheap. Maybe a choc ice in the interval. My parents met at the cinema in 1951, queuing up for an ice. Now that they are gone, and I can't ask them, I so regret never finding out what film was on. To my eternal shame, that used to embarrass me.

It all just depends on where you live / local house prices / therefore required borrowing amount etc.

Being able to buy in your early twenties is unusual - the average age of a FTB is something like 33.

A £2.5k mortgage would be ~£500k of borrowing, so not impossible for OPs example couple earning ~£100k ish between them.

There are far far more takeaway food vendors around now. Might not be chippy's but there are definitely far more street food and takeaway vendors around

My children had a middle class upbringing in London: London day schools, sports clubs, large house, two cars, I was at home for the first 7/8 years and then worked through choice, home abroad, nice holidays, theatre, music, sport, two cars, holidays. We ate at a mid range restaurant for birthdays, special occasions. We never spaffed £125pw up the wall on pizza.

This doesn’t make any sense? Presumably your dc are grown up now so why would pizza have cost £125 years ago?!

100k couldn’t put two dc through private school now even if one abstained from pizza!

How much are you spending for a week abroad for a family of 4 in the school holidays?

Particularly interested in how much you’re spending on travel.

@pragmatismuniversalsentimentalist

Where did I argue otherwise? I just corrected the narrative that in the past fish & chips, the pub or the cinema was an annual event only.

I agree with this and relate to it.

I think that expectations of “stuff” has increased. Consumption is a massive issue. Whether it’s clothes, holidays, eating out more, take away, replacing cars more often. It does all add up.

I would say I had a middle class up bringing. Big detached house in the countryside, parents were both head of department teachers. Riding lessons. Didn’t go abroad until I was 11 and then that was a weekend in Paris. I didn’t go on a plane until I was 21yo!

saying that housing was cheaper then so easier to afford the detached big house. No idea what my parents spent money on as we never had takeaways or new clothes or cars 😁. Probably oil for heating and plants for the garden 😂

Interestingly, eating out was traditionally a wc thing to do, largely because many people lived in houses/bedsits with limited cooking facilities. Hence proliferation of chippies. I'm sure this was up to the 1930s, but I could be wrong. Eating at home was expensive.

I think private education is only affordable now to the upper middle classes unless family money

I would say my upbringing and lifestyle now is fairly middle class. I don't really know any sahm except one homeschooler, they manage by very tight budgeting. My mum wasn't a sham. Also none of the three bed houses around here are as low as 275k, and we're not in London.

Also class doesnt only come from income. I know you're talking about the lifestyle but many middle class families will have had middle class parents who will have helped with housing deposits, paid for university education and will be leaving inheritences

Parent social
life I think it’s too high. I’m out tonight with friends nd expect to pay 40/50 quid for a meal and few drinks. I’m driving so only
one alcoholic drink. That’s my only night out this week. But I guess if drinking buying rounds etc. it’s could easy get to 100.

Yes - two in London day schools is now going to be ~£60-70k per year, so an entire £100k salary after tax.

It was the preserve of the middle classes - for those starting out on that journey now… honestly I’m not even sure of how the economics are rationalised. A minimum of £5k a month.

The only people I know using them (my kids at prep age) are not reliant on their income to pay the fees - they are wealthy to the tune of many multi millions.

It’s interesting to see the expenses laid out like that across the year OP.

But historically it was a very normal feature of MC life.

We're in SE London. DS bought a 3 bed semi last year and pays £2300 a month mortgage. Way less than 50% equity too.

We earnt our pocket money. All we got for free was a comic each and a bar of fruit and nut to share over the weekend.

Indeed, we were working class and we would have chip shop dinner most Friday nights growing up. Although I wouldn’t do that these days even with a 6 figure household, the cost now 😱

Which is probably a tenner now, so even your ‘no pocket money’ scenario still includes spending at least 1/3 of what OP has proposed.

Child labour laws also exist which is why an 11 year old can’t do a paper round job any more and the nature of cash in hand work doesn’t exist in the same way meaning if a child does anything with friends etc it’s the parents paying whether they call it pocket money or not.

For 4 people! So £750 each. I know kids are cheaper but I rarely see holidays at that price - certainly not ones aimed at middle class families.

@MidnightPatrolthe ones I know all have family support & support to get on the ladder in their early 20s which makes a huge difference.

Well yes. But this has always been the case. It has never been the case that a large proportion of the population could afford this lifestyle including regular meals out, foreign travel, gym membership...

(I think your clothes allowance is really mean though!)

I think the variables are too wide for anyone to say for definite. In a lot of what I would term 'middle class' households I know of, grandparents look after small children a few days a week to save on childcare costs, both parents work but one works either part time or compressed hours, mortgages are more expensive but holidays tend to be seaside in the UK or city breaks in the UK rather than European.

We all also have different definitions of middle class.

@intsjl26 we had fish & chips last week on holiday £50 with no alcohol.