AIBU to think some school policies are at least partially responsible for the rise in pupil unhappiness?

[Alittlebitofmin]

A friend’s kid described school like a prison. He is likely to be a school success story set to get really good grades, but sees school as something to mainly tolerate. AIBU to think the school system itself is at least a significant partial reason why teenagers report lower levels of happiness at schools in England? Schools seem increasingly punitive and restrictive, pressure seems high, some children are even made to feel guilty if they have a day off sick.

sometimes its the parents not the school.

The purpose of work isn't enjoyment, it's something you do in order to earn a living. Sometimes it might be enjoyable, often it is not, but you still have to get on with it.

You know, we could teach kids that they are standing on the shoulders of giants.

Or we could teach them how to correctly stack a dishwasher or some other stuff they might find 'useful' in the future.

The kids of the well off always get funnelled into the 'standing on the shoulders of giants' and the kids of the less well off get funnelled into the dishwasher stacking when people decide at a young age what type of education would be best for them.

@PigglyWigglyOhYeah I think you make a good point. A lot of kids had a much stricter dull up bringing in 70s and 80s so school was more interesting and fun in comparison. Now it’s the opposite

And I’m sure that works for some kids. Perhaps it would have helped if they had tried to relate some of it to real life at least though.

Surely most kids don’t really care about being able to reflect on the human condition?

Maybe it was because I was ND (before anyone knew about ADHD/autism etc) but I needed to be able to relate at least some of what I was learning to real life.

I only did well in the subjects I was naturally good at - in fact to this day I have no idea how to revise for exams, despite taking plenty since I left school!

Shakespeare definitely relates to real life....

Kids don't always know what is best for them.

I think it’s important for kids to grow up learning that working life isn’t always fun but it’s necessary. Otherwise you get people leaving school or uni who won’t do perfectly reasonable tasks because they don’t like those tasks.

Look at the social mobility trends over the last thirty years. We're going backwards. Not all of that is due to school, wider inequality plays a big part, but the idea what we have now is some exemplary educational offering is laughable.

You always seem to defend the status quo in schools, but there's so much that could be improved for both teachers and pupils. And that improvement would strengthen the country as a whole.

No, my primary/junior school was barbaric: heads on head, stand in the corner, derision , insults and slapping.

My dad fetched me out of it when I was kept behind until 4pm in a stand off with my school dinner in front of me which I couldn’t eat because it made me vomit: onion and bacon in suet 🤮 .

I went through a phase of nonstop crying and meltdowns and they sent me to an ed psych because in my teacher’s words I was “sick”.

The ed psych couldn’t find anything “wrong” with me. “Just” traumatised.

My comp was a breeze in comparison, there were a few psychos but most of the teachers were chilled - albeit with low expectations of us council estate kids.

A long story but I eventually became a secondary teacher and did 25 years before getting ill with burnout and taking early retirement.

In those years, I saw the Global Education Reform Movement turn a good system toxic and, in my view, we’re back to the days of working class kids being punished for not achieving the targets and SEND kids being punished for not conforming to the rigidity.

I’ve seen parents, kids and decent teachers treated like shit. I’ve seen attendance figures falsified and exam results manipulated.

This is what happens when humans are commodified.

I am not for a minute suggesting that kids don’t need boundaries or that they shouldn’t be encouraged to do their best. But there needs to be a bit of love, care and nurture in the process and, trust me, that is lacking.

The backlash has started with parents and children voting with their feet and just not attending.

. It’s going to get bigger because, unlike when I was bullied to death at primary school, people do have a sense of their worth and, like the op are starting to question punitive academization.

No of course they don’t but when school is determined to knock any love of learning out of you, then that isn’t good for kids either.

We only did Macbeth so I can’t comment on the Shakespeare. However I was a bright kid but totally disengaged - I spent five years locked in the toilets every break and lunchtime with a book just waiting until I could leave at 16.

My DC go to a good primary school in a nice, bland, safe area, but even so, a few of the teachers leave the profession every year and several others have reduced their hours. At least one other teacher has been off sick with stress last year.

I think it's too soon to say whether Andy Burnham cares about improving teacher retention, but it feels as though the last few governments haven't given a shit. I think the two main problems are an over-ambitious curriculum (which piles the pressure on teachers and children) and disruptive behaviour from pupils. Why aren't schools allowed to deal effectively with challenging behaviour anymore? Why must everyone put up with fighting in the classroom, children screaming and jumping up and down on a desk, and children being afraid to go to the library to change their reading books because a child in there is throwing chairs around?

Actually, I think I know the reason. It's because special schools and PRUs are very expensive to run and local authorities are broke. Still, I can't think of any excuse for the madcap sprint of the Key Stage 2 curriculum. Why exactly must Year 3 children cover maths topics which used to be covered in Year 5? My elder DC is apparently performing at greater depth in maths. Sadly, she has grown to hate the subject and does all she can to avoid it, including by trying to make herself late for school.

Dear god I can't think of any time I've defended the status quo in schools. Many, many threads doing the exact opposite.

However, we know from long experience and international data that social mobility suffers when people think that children should be split at a young age into those that study Shakespeare and those who learn more useful stuff,

I mean, I teach A-level maths and Further Maths to kids who actively chose it because they like maths, where some people would rather stay in the toilet to skip maths (I also teach maths to the kids who would rather stay in the toilet, and this is one reason that we have restrictions on kids going to the toilet in lessons). "School knocked the love of learning out of me" isn't the same as "School knocks the love of learning out of everyone "

No it knocked the love of learning out of many bright kids.

And I wasn’t in the toilet during lessons - it was every break and lunchtime. I would have been punished for doing it during lessons

True that. I resented having to study Shakespeare at secondary school. "This were a bed but cold to sleep so soundly" You what, mate?

But I can now appreciate how much Shakespeare has influenced our language and culture. A few years ago, I actually paid to attend a talk about Shakespeare by David Crystal and found it interesting and informative. How annoying to have to admit to myself that my teachers were right all along!

Another straw man as what you describe isn't what I suggested.

We could offer so much more, if properly funded.

"Useful learning" always ends up being vocational.

So explaining practical applications is only useful for vocational?

I know someone who loathed geometry at school as it seemed pointless just learning formulae,

That person went on to take up patchwork as an hobby as n adult, where the knowledge of geometry would come in handy.

Sometimes it’s easier to learn when you can relate it to something,

I can see why you instinctively fear that, given it's an ongoing political debate in education. Against that spectre it's understandable you'd dig in for the status quo.

However I myself was not talking about vocational, I was talking about different books. There is quite a wide range of literature that could be offered.

What is wrong with vocational learning?

There's nothing wrong with it, no one said there is.

There's an issue if the choice between vocational or academic gets made for a kid rather than by a kid.

It's a problem that academic is seen as the standard and vocational is seen as the alternative.

What age would you envisage students splitting pathways?

Because if you split too much/early you deprive students of the time they need to develop their own preference of career, so the choice gets made for them.

Its not just about funding though.

It needs to be asked who is going to teach what you want schools to offer?

There is a teacher shortage in many subjects, and many of those are vocational subjects.

Very few people with the skills that you want them to be teaching and have the skills to teach it want to go into a profession where they will be treated like dirt not only by the kids and parents, but by the management of the schools, the government, the media and the the system as a whole.

All this whilst providing the materials for the pupils to use.

Do it fo rthe kids no longer cuts it with many teachers.

The hard truth is that you haven't got the education system that you want because you didn't treat the system and those in it with the care that it and they needed.