Neighbours angry at DS for snapping back and daughter’s homophobia - hypocrisy??

[TheNoisyDeer]

DS, 13, came out in Year 6 at the age of 10 and he has struggled with making friends ever since. His boy friends always used to make him the butt of the joke so he stopped being friends with them. He has a couple of female friends now but he still feels like he can’t be himself around them because they give him the side eye when they talk about boys and he talks about boys too. Due to this he feels on the defence when his sexuality is spoken about.

I invited our neighbours over earlier this evening for chat and drinks in the sunshine and the younger girl, 8, overheard her sister (the older daughter), 11, talking to DS about their crushes. She laughed at him, made a few comments about it being weird and called him a “gay boy”. I don’t know whether she’d picked it up from school or somewhere, but DS was clearly upset. He snapped and called her “a stupid bitch” and to “f off”.

There was immediate anger from her parents because she’s only 8 and they said there was no excuse for speaking to a young girl like that and demanded I tell him off. The older daughter also took her side and shouted at him to not talk to her sister like that. He looked startled, humiliated and ran inside.

I went inside and spoke to him about the language he used and said it wasn’t acceptable, especially to a girl that young, but I also told him I understood why he was hurt and that nobody should mock someone’s sexuality. DS said he didn’t care how old she was because she’d been horrible to him first and then refused to go back outside and apologise. I explained this to my neighbours and the mum said she wanted to leave and won’t put up with her daughters being spoken to in that manner and they left.

Ideally I would have expected the children to apologise to each other, preferably her first as she started it and then moved on but I was shocked by their reaction to just leave. We’ve been good friends for years and now I feel hurt by their lack of accountability for the homophobia and hypocrisy. I wouldn’t like the friendship to end but I won’t be bowing down to them.

AIBU for thinking both children were in the wrong but both the daughter and parents are more so?

I suppose this thread has been enlightening into why so many men (and women) are misogynistic and think using terms like bitch is okay especially to young girls

Bit fucking disappointing that so many grown women are happy to call an 8 year old a bitch. Some I suspect haven't realised just how misogynistic they actually are as its that ingrained in them they think its normal and okay to go round calling young girls bitches.

Apparently its okay for a 13 year old boy (and grown women) to call 8 year old girls bitches and use 'trauma' as an excuse to be misogynistic.

Genuinely what the actual fuck. I suspect all those calling this 8 year old a bitch would react very differently if its was your daughter on the receiving end of misogynistic language...

the ingrained misogyny on this thread is shocking.

In an ideal world yes we'd all shrug things like this off and maybe when he's an adult he will. I'm not sure you fully grasp how bad and to the levels that bullying, particularly about sexuality, can get too. I'm talking every day, endless isolation, verbal and physical abuse. It can get really really bad. Suicidal levels of bad. It's a relentless reinforcement that something about you is wrong, disgusting and unacceptable. Gay people go through this a lot. It is far from uncommon. It limits what you can do from activities to sports. Particularly sports. It comes from girls and boys and adults of all ages. People are beaten up in broad daylight in this country for just appearing to be gay in some way. PTSD isn't uncommon and he's been dealing with this for 3 years now. He's not going to have perfect reactions no teenager does. He was told it wasn't acceptable by his mum but he's got one safe place and however old the person is they came in gave him more of the same shit he may hear every single day, multiple times a day and then he never gets any sort of apology either. Should he have apologised? Yes of course he should but if it was my 8 year old he'd have got one too and all the children would have had a serious talking to with the understanding that nobody behaved well and my child started it.

I don't think bitch is ok and I've said so at least a dozen times. I'd be upset if someone called my daughter that. I'd also be upset if she was homophobic. I can deal with both those things at once. I don't have to be homophobic to battle misogyny or misogynistic to battle homophobia.

I'm not sure I even knew what gay meant when I was 8

I'm bi and interestingly it's only been gay and lesbian people who have insulted me for it. My point being that if you think of yourself as a victim you can lose sight of the fact that it's possible to be both a victim and a perpetrator at the same time. Lashing out at an 8 year old and calling her a stupid bitch is unacceptable. A man calling any woman a stupid bitch is not ok.

8 year olds now understand and know more about difference than in the past

It's really quite sad how acceptable people seem to think homophobia is because she's "only 8"

You should never just "shrug off" abuse of minorities

His reaction was a little strong but he's 13 so his emotions are all over the place and he's also been suffering abuse which made him react worse

But she absolutely should have been pulled up about her words

Outside of MN most people don't see "bitch" as vile misogyny and see it as a slightly less mild insult

She attacked him first and she recieved no consequences.

You also reacted to a post not specifically aimed at you and went on the defensive yourself

No it absolutely isn't ok. I'm not sure where I said it was. Given the attitudes of many 13 year old boys straight and gay it's not surprising but it is disappointing (and grim) and it needs dealing with. Doesn't let the parents of the 8 year old or the 8 year old off the hook though. Ideally op can sit down with everyone and discuss it calmly and the children apologise and both come away better. I also think her son needs therapy as a place to help deal with the isolation and bullying. The 8 year old needs education. Neither act should be minimised though and the reactions can be understood without condoning. It also needs to be the catalyst for this boy to get some help and hopefully op can find safe spaces for him in their area. I'm bi too and yes I've had a lot of it from lesbians (I'd never heard the grim phrase cockpot before but it was enlightening!). I've also had the comments from straight men and women who have told me I'm disgusting and should "pick a side" plus the usual grim sexual ones which can get nasty when you tell men that you aren't going to have a threesome with them. Bi phobia is pretty rife as well although I think I probably had it easier than my bi male mates but again that could be location. My eldest son was beaten up in broad daylight 8 weeks ago by a grown man screaming he was a "dirty gay nonce". It required hospital and a fair few visits from the police. Hopefully the trial won't be too lengthy. Funnily enough my son isn't gay he's just been interpreted that way for years. Presumably that is rooted in misogyny and homophobia. It's all shit.

Most people don't see Bitch as misogynistic the way MN does

If my daughter was mocking, teasing and using slurs which led to her being shouted at then I would also expect her to apologise

I have an 8 year old dgc who knows gay men love other men. About as far as it goes. It's just something " matter of fact" that's all.

I'm sorry to hear your son has had and is having a tough time of things. He is still so young, I'm not surprised it's hard for him to regulate his emotions. He is, however, now a teen and maybe you and he can use this incident to help him start to think about his feelings and put some reasoning around them. If the 8 yo is too young to be exposed to that language, too young to understand what she was saying etc. etc. then ok, maybe he can write a note to her parents. He can apologise for swearing at their daughter. He can politely explain why the use of homophobic slurs upset him so much, why the girl's language and attitude is harmful, and while he accepts that she is too young to understand how cruel she was being, he hopes she soon comes to understand how her words can impact others. Once again, accept this does not excuse the swearing so apologise for unacceptable response to daughter. Done. I would not be making him apologise face to face to the girl unless she was there to sincerely do the same.

All those saying 11 -13 is too young to be talking about crushes/who we fancy.
Really?! I definitely remember talking with my mates discussing which boys we fancied when I was 12, even 11 in the 1980s!
(I'm a straight female) Did nobody else really talk about crushes at that age?!
I agree with the poster that said the 8 year old needs educating, I'd have been mortified if my child had come out with that. Just to say in age appropriate terms that it's not nice to call people names and laugh at them like that, and that some people are gay and there's nothing wrong with that if so.
The 13 year old boy, I get he was upset but that's an absolutely unacceptable way to talk to a child too.
He needs telling in no uncertain terms as well not to do that again.

He's 13. 13!!

But he's male
We know what MN thinks about men

Did you go to school in the 80s/90s? Obviously I don't want you to go into details, it'd just be interesting to know - because if you did, we've got Section 28 law to thank for that.
We weren't "allowed" to know anything.
It was just a slur to throw around at people as "stuff like that" was frowned upon for want of a better phrase.

It's sweet that so many posters think an 8-year-old is so innocent that they could never intentionally say something hurtful to another child.

Minorities usually know when someone - child or adult - has said something prejudiced deliberately or accidentally. Given that this girl's family weren't absolutely mortified about her homophobia, I'm thinking the apple didn't fall far from the tree.

I once called an 11-year-old girl in the year below a stupid bitch after she'd repeatedly called me a racial slur. It's not "internalised misogyny"; kids reach for the nearest and easiest slur without reading up on how different slurs are gendered. I also have no regrets. She was a stupid bitch, and she left me alone after that.

What still gets me about this is it was only repealed in 2003! It's up there with the rape in marriage repeal only happening in the 90s. I'm always a little shocked it's all in my lifetime. It all feels much too late for such grim legislation to be tossed out.

SHES 8. Jesus christ. Your son shouldn't even be discussing his sexuality with 8 year old. He also needs much thicker skin, women dont get to lash out every time a man calls them a stupid bitch, or we risk getting smacked in the face. Your son needs to learn to control himself.
And no, homophobia is not rooted in misogyny, what a fucking weird thing to claim!

She was listening in to a conversation between him and her older sister

Women absolutely can and should challenge men who insult them

Male homophobia has roots in misogyny because some of it comes down to, and refers to, uncomfortableness around men taking the traditionally "female" role

It sounds like you told him you understood his behaviour and that was a fundamental mistake, which has enabled him to think he need not apologize and that his gayness will be an excuse for such things in the future. But the key issue here is his verbally attacking an 8-year old who quite probably cannot grasp the complexity of sexual identity, or may indeed have no concept of gayness. It is for her parents to explain to her that same sex relationships are okay and this is clearly a teaching moment. But not your teaching moment. Yours is with an unruly son who has gone way outside of acceptable social interaction and needs to apologize or accept consequences; the first consequence likely being he no longer gets to play with the neighbour girls and becomes even more socially isolated. Whether it is fair or not, as an out teen he needs to learn to use more productive words and explain himself and his identity because otherwise he will continue to be pushed to the margins.

He wasn't "discussing his sexuality" with an 8 year old though, was he?!
If you read the OP again, it says that the boy (13) and the girl (who was 11 ) were talking about crushes.
Which is perfectly normal. I had crushes at that age, and so did my mates and we mentioned/laughed about them. Absolutely nothing sexual though, it was whether you wanted to kiss them or whatever!
Or should the boy just have shut up as his were "gay" feelings?!

If he’s talking about crushes on celebrities, then I agree with you. However, if he’s talking about crushes on male classmates then I think that would definitely impact any possible friendships with boys in his class.

I asked DS14 about this last night. I asked how he would feel if he found out a boy in his class had a crush on him. He said he would feel super awkward and stay away from him. I challenged him on whether he thought that behaviour would be homophobic. He said no, because he would also feel awkward if a girl had a crush on him too but he’s not in changing rooms with girls and there is a chance that he may also like the girl. If it were a boy that was telling people he had a crush on him, there would be no chance of anything romantic happening so he’d just keep his distance.

OP, if your DS is openly discussing crushes on straight classmates, then I would gently try and tell him it’s not a great idea.