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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that NT children miss out in school inclusion policies.

277 replies

empee47 · 06/07/2026 16:45

To think that inclusion policies in primary schools are almost never geared to helping academic, NT children get the best out of their education? They’re almost always designed to help the underdog - not denying this is necessary - but those at the top end of the spectrum don’t get the chance to shine as bright as they might otherwise do.

OP posts:
titchy · 06/07/2026 19:16

empee47 · 06/07/2026 17:39

I would expect an inclusion policy to include all children. The spectrum I am referring to is academic ability ie at the top of the ability range if you object to the word ‘spectrum.’

Edited

Inclusion means bringing excluded children in. Not directing those resources at children who are already included.

I guess you also espouse ‘all lives matter’ as well.

Your children are bright and NT - they have the fucking world at their feet. And you want the world to provide yet more for them.

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:17

Thechaseison71 · 06/07/2026 19:15

What about the right kids who are not pushed to achieve? Same 93% of parents who can't do private school..

If being bright means being ignored then many of the kids will get disillusioned and be bored hence thinking of mischief to do

Exactly! What about then and their rights to a fitting education? No one cares because even if they’re totally ignored they’re bright enough to hit the average performance needed..

JassyRadlett · 06/07/2026 19:17

There are two issues here:

Inclusion done well can benefit all children, but many (I'd actually say most) lack the skills, resources or both to do it well or even to a passable level, and it becomes a waterbed - the disadvantage and relative harm just constantly shifts around, and as one problem is addressed it creates a new one.

The other issue, which is separate, is that particularly at primary there are almost no incentives to stretch high performing children, so scarce resources are almost inevitably put elsewhere.

Some like to paint the latter as a "no harm done" impact as the children in question will be meeting minimum standards, but there are two issues with this: first, is the purpose of education to help every child achieve their potential, or is it to get everyone to a basic standard; and second, it ignores the fact that a bright child is also a whole person with emotions and needs, and a school experience that doesn't meet those needs can have a significant impact.

KateSixer · 06/07/2026 19:17

Namechangedforgoodreasons · 06/07/2026 17:33

It’s one of those things you’re not supposed to say, but I think that every time I see the poster that illustrates "equity" as opposed to "equality". With "equity" the three children are given different size boxes to stand on, so they can all see over the wall - but of course if the tallest was given the same size box as the shortest, he'd have an even better view…

This is such a well phrased post.

I was about to say that schools need to be careful that they don't take a lowest common denominator approach. It's vital that every child is stretched.

But you put it so much more subtly.

empee47 · 06/07/2026 19:19

C4tintherug · 06/07/2026 18:10

As a teacher I see this time and time again, I’m only 1 human, I have 1 pair of hands and I am physically unable to meet every single need of every single child. I have to help the weakest/ one having a meltdown/ badly behaved which generally leaves the G+T to fend for themselves. It’s not fair on them.
I worry about how we will compete as a country on an international playing field- our brightest kids are not pushed as much as they could be. Why do you think so many more kids from private schools end up at university and at oxbridge?
How will this affect our long term economic outlook? With so many kids needing accommodations- how many will be able to work?

I empathise with you and I fully agree. It’s almost a crime to be academically ambitious here!

OP posts:
Stressedoutmummyof3 · 06/07/2026 19:20

Brownwithnopezazz · 06/07/2026 17:25

Inclusion policies are absolutely toxic to the majority, and an obstacle to excellence. My children’s only negative memories of school are due to pupils who simply shouldn’t have been there. It’s
palpably absurd to favour the few at the expense of the many. When is this drivel going to stop? It’s truly surreal to hear how a child has yelled and walloped his way through the day at school, every day, so he can be included. Why don’t we tell the truth, that these inclusive policies are damaging.
WTF is so wrong with going somewhere tailored to your behaviour, instead of putting a fox in with pigeons, your fingers in your ears, and singing lalala, isn’t it lovely!

Where would you like these children to go? Or is it just a case of you don't want it to be your problem? Should disruptive children be in a SEN school? Should children who are not violent but do have special needs be in a SEN school? Yes they should be but there are no spaces. There aren't enough special schools. The criteria to get a space is ridiculous.
Blame the bloody government that shut the schools down and decided all kids could be included in mainstream but don't blame the children.
You are lucky, your DD can have extra coaching, you can help her. Children with SEN don't have that luxury.

Girasoli · 06/07/2026 19:21

What's wrong with forest school? I think that's very useful for any DC. My 6 year old points out poisonous plants to me on walks now.

There are 2 DC who have 1 to 1s for SEN in DS1s classroom and neither of them are in the least bit violent.

DillyDallyingAllDay · 06/07/2026 19:24

Actually I think you’re wrong. The more academically able children might not benefit from ‘inclusion’ policies but schools do stretch and do extra things for the most able. I know of one school where some children are taken out of assemblies once a week to stretch their writing skills

LathkillDale · 06/07/2026 19:25

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:15

Of course SEN kids deserve an education, but not in a classroom with other children if they are going to disrupt. Surely that’s obvious?

This thread is about not solutions to the problems of children with challenging behaviour, whether due to trauma, multiple deprivations or unmet SEN. It’s trying to whip up resentment towards SEN children.

Divide and conquer, to get the population fighting among themselves, having whipped them up into scape goating, so they don’t notice the real issue is the transfer of assets from ordinary people to the ultra wealthy, while the majority become wage slaves in a neo feudal system.

BravasPatatas · 06/07/2026 19:27

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:15

Of course SEN kids deserve an education, but not in a classroom with other children if they are going to disrupt. Surely that’s obvious?

Many non SEN children disrupt classrooms. Where should they go?
My SEN child has never disrupted a classroom.

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:28

Stressedoutmummyof3 · 06/07/2026 19:20

Where would you like these children to go? Or is it just a case of you don't want it to be your problem? Should disruptive children be in a SEN school? Should children who are not violent but do have special needs be in a SEN school? Yes they should be but there are no spaces. There aren't enough special schools. The criteria to get a space is ridiculous.
Blame the bloody government that shut the schools down and decided all kids could be included in mainstream but don't blame the children.
You are lucky, your DD can have extra coaching, you can help her. Children with SEN don't have that luxury.

We need to fund these schools to be opened, obviously. There is no other option.

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:29

BravasPatatas · 06/07/2026 19:27

Many non SEN children disrupt classrooms. Where should they go?
My SEN child has never disrupted a classroom.

Pupil referral unit. We need zero tolerance. There are no consequences for bad behaviour in Scotland (where I am), the kids know they have full control and run riot. It’s a disaster.

C0dename · 06/07/2026 19:29

C4tintherug · 06/07/2026 18:10

As a teacher I see this time and time again, I’m only 1 human, I have 1 pair of hands and I am physically unable to meet every single need of every single child. I have to help the weakest/ one having a meltdown/ badly behaved which generally leaves the G+T to fend for themselves. It’s not fair on them.
I worry about how we will compete as a country on an international playing field- our brightest kids are not pushed as much as they could be. Why do you think so many more kids from private schools end up at university and at oxbridge?
How will this affect our long term economic outlook? With so many kids needing accommodations- how many will be able to work?

You’re a teacher and don’t know that 67% to 73% of UK undergraduates admitted to Oxford and Cambridge come from state schools. Within Russel group unis 70-75% of state pupils are from the state sector.

Private schools are over represented ( for several reasons)as only 6% of children go to private schools so really it should be 94% of Oxbridge undergraduates that are from privates schools but state schools are clearly doing an excellent job at getting their pupils to the best unis with a lot less resources.

babyursohellbent · 06/07/2026 19:30

Inclusive education has been a disaster for British education.

SnozPoz · 06/07/2026 19:30

You're suggesting that kids not neurotypical can't be at the top end of the academic spectrum. Careful there. I know plenty of ND people who are the brightest around. We've come a long way with this in the past 50 years... maybe it's too far for your liking but It's a vast improvement and our society is better for it.

BravasPatatas · 06/07/2026 19:30

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:28

We need to fund these schools to be opened, obviously. There is no other option.

You didn’t answer all of the other questions in that post?

KettleHead87 · 06/07/2026 19:36

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 17:21

They have a legal duty to properly stretch gifted and talented children and my child’s state secondary had no interest in this whatsoever. There’s a reason why most PMs went to private school…

You think that it’s the amazing private school education that led them to be PM? You think that’s what they got out of private school, the education?! And it’s the incredible teaching that lead to them being PM?!

Okay….

LejlaKapovic · 06/07/2026 19:36

BeigeCardigan · 06/07/2026 16:49

Well, that’s something that’s easy for parents to do in their own time with their child.

The same could be said about parents of neurodiverse kids. Why can't they do it in their own time? Maybe parents of neurotypical and gifted children don't have the capacity to give their children the extra push that they need to unlock their kids' full potential.

All children deserve to receive the appropriate schooling and attention. Including neurotypical and gifted children. OP is right that these groups are often not academically nurtured enough, and that kids with challenges often take up a lot of space and attention in the classroom.

KettleHead87 · 06/07/2026 19:38

empee47 · 06/07/2026 19:19

I empathise with you and I fully agree. It’s almost a crime to be academically ambitious here!

That’s ridiculous, of course it isn’t ’almost a crime to be academically ambitious here’, what a load of absolute bullshit. Some people really do go through like wearing horse blinkers and only seeing the narrow slice of things the way they want to see them so that life can match the rhetoric they’ve invented in their head.

HereIsWhatIKnow · 06/07/2026 19:40

So....
Many moons ago, you had statements and you could have many statemented students in one group. Expectations at secondary might have been lower (e.g certificate of achievement or St. Martin's rather than a GCSE) but there was also emphasis on key and core skills.
You had a gifted and talented cohort.
You had Section 11 for English as an additional language.
You had Beacon schools and schools with specialist subjects.
You had positive and negative residuals you had to defend and year 9 SATs that set expectations for GCSE. You had setting.
You also had Special Schools and in some schools Bases (e.g. for ASC where students could nip in and out of mainstream).

Now you have EHCPs that are gate kept, like golddust and are not always followed/upheld.
Many Special Schools closed, CAHMs is not fit for purpose, pathways are full/taking forever and PRUs are full.

Primary schools are Watch and Wait/Quality Teaching First.
Secondary is all Adaptive teaching. Teach to the top. Scaffold down.
Little setting as creates sink sets and mixed ability is supposedly more inclusive. Nurture groups gone as allegedly do not stretch enough. Gifted/talented gone, instead it is interventions after school and extra curricular/electives.
Work experience being replaced by workshops and visits.
LSAs doing interventions separately but "general" support in class, not allowed to sit with more challenging students anymore within the classroom itself.

Adaptive teaching is what was once known as Differentiation. By task or by outcome. Primary it used to be different table colours and tasks. Secondary it was often finished this, do more of that.

The gap now in a mixed ability class would shock most of you. You have a lesson they are all meant to follow as part of levelling up when you have some who can write three sides and some can barely write three lines. The amount of undiagnosed and diagnosed SEN has rocketed.

Biggest driver is often ADHD and unmedicated ADHD which causes the most disruption. Some ASC are dysregulated by the constant low level disruptions, others with sensory overload by the noise of fidgets, blutac given to soothe is often flung around, teachers are asked to make more allowances for those who cannot self-regulate and those in the middle - neither high nor low academically - sit there thinking what is the point of them/are they invisible.

Job is to protect all children's learning but we have neither the money nor the tools nor the space nor the support as we are being asked to provide for such differences in need within one group in one setting - with the mantra if you get it right for SEND you are getting it right for everyone. But it is one size fits all, throw the glue all over them all at the same time and see how much sticks. You are told to chunk, told to scaffold but not dumb down, emphasis on challenging them.

It is an impossible task right now.
Nurturing groups worked.
Separate wings/bases worked.
LSAs sitting alongside students worked.
But we keep being told facilitate do not enable, don't have them rely on you, promote independence.

Some of the kids your heart bleeds for.
Because they are docile/quiet, perceived to be "good" and having their lessons sabotaged on a daily basis. This is NT and ND kids to be clear.
And they see others not being held to the same standards behaviour wise or they'd be exited within minutes without inbuilt extra chances. They neither get treated for high flying nor forest school/time out for struggling. And the mantra is that ALL kids' education is important. Yet it often feels like Animal Farm and not just because some pupils are feral/act like they are in a zoo (again NT, not just what we used to label EBD) "All animals are equal but some are more equal than others."

It is happening all over the country in schools down your street - some pupils choose to misbehave, others cannot cope or access the curriculum, others are surviving/trying to grey rock/block out the sounds, others are bystanders rather than upstanders.

It is painful and why so many teachers are leaving, changing careers or retiring earlier than planned. Because you can work tirelessly but are more often than not banging your head against the wall with the added salt of parents not backing you. Any critics please do train, do it yourself, you'll find - just like homeschooling in COVID showed - that it is a lot more challenging than you'd like to believe.

MyEasterBonnet · 06/07/2026 19:47

I think it depends on context. I work in a school and I find that they’re so focused on inclusion of send students, that it can be detrimental to the majority of the class.

Jumbaree · 06/07/2026 19:48

Positivepositron · 06/07/2026 18:12

I don't think you seem to understand the purpose of an inclusion policy if you think it should include stretching the most able pupils.
Your issue actually seems to be that you don't think children with SEN should be in mainstream. However if there were special school places for all children with SEN who are currently in mainstream the cost would be incredibly high and there would be even less money for mainstream.
Obviously they haven't got the support right for SEN pupils currently, but including fewer pupils in mainstream wouldn't then magically allow more resources to be spent om gifted pupils.

Gifted pupils don’t need more resources spent on them. They simply need a quiet, calm environment to crack on with learning. They absolutely do not have that just now in state schools here so no one learns anything. No one wins from that. School is for learning and no one is learning anything.

MandemChickenShop · 06/07/2026 19:58

PoppyseedPurple · 06/07/2026 18:45

Nonsense - my DC got 14 x grade 9s in a “good” comprehensive school and 4 x A* + EPQ in a state sixth form. Excellent teachers throughout. Also, high achievers raise the Progress 8 score so there is an incentive to stretch more able pupils.

Andy Burnham went to state schools and looks likely to be the next PM.

I said most. Your child's incredible academic achievement doesn't rebuke the general point. There are always exceptions. Your argument is akin to saying there's no racism in the UK because Rishi Sunak was prime minister.

Anyway it's not just my opinion - it's the conclusion of detailed research from the Sutton Trust and Ofsted

C0dename · 06/07/2026 20:00

LejlaKapovic · 06/07/2026 19:36

The same could be said about parents of neurodiverse kids. Why can't they do it in their own time? Maybe parents of neurotypical and gifted children don't have the capacity to give their children the extra push that they need to unlock their kids' full potential.

All children deserve to receive the appropriate schooling and attention. Including neurotypical and gifted children. OP is right that these groups are often not academically nurtured enough, and that kids with challenges often take up a lot of space and attention in the classroom.

Extra push for what? The majority of students in the top unis are state kids.

Yogafiend · 06/07/2026 20:03

Speaking from the perspective of academic children - it’s up to you as the parent to push them. You either send them to private school, or do tutoring or do tutoring at home yourself. I know it can be super frustrating if that’s your choline, but we can’t afford to have children in state school falling further through the cracks in my experience.

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