To think that NT children miss out in school inclusion policies.

[empee47]

To think that inclusion policies in primary schools are almost never geared to helping academic, NT children get the best out of their education? They’re almost always designed to help the underdog - not denying this is necessary - but those at the top end of the spectrum don’t get the chance to shine as bright as they might otherwise do.

Inclusion isn’t about shining and those at the top, without disabilities don’t need help.

As a teacher I see this time and time again, I’m only 1 human, I have 1 pair of hands and I am physically unable to meet every single need of every single child. I have to help the weakest/ one having a meltdown/ badly behaved which generally leaves the G+T to fend for themselves. It’s not fair on them.
I worry about how we will compete as a country on an international playing field- our brightest kids are not pushed as much as they could be. Why do you think so many more kids from private schools end up at university and at oxbridge?
How will this affect our long term economic outlook? With so many kids needing accommodations- how many will be able to work?

I don't think you seem to understand the purpose of an inclusion policy if you think it should include stretching the most able pupils.
Your issue actually seems to be that you don't think children with SEN should be in mainstream. However if there were special school places for all children with SEN who are currently in mainstream the cost would be incredibly high and there would be even less money for mainstream.
Obviously they haven't got the support right for SEN pupils currently, but including fewer pupils in mainstream wouldn't then magically allow more resources to be spent om gifted pupils.

I don’t necessarily think my kids miss out academically, DS is autistic but he’s relatively low support needs. What I do think is a problem is that some of the SEN children both their classes are physically aggressive. DD has no issue dealing with it, tbh she hit the kid back once and he moved on to an easier target, but DS had a really hard time with a boy in his class. It’s done now, he did eventually hit him back and he moved on to the next.

Also, I’m a maths tutor so I think I’m pretty equipped to help them academically and I do take a lot of time to ensure they’re ahead of where they should be.

You are correct OP. So much time and money goes into inclusion that NT children that meet “standard” are not typically pushed, stretched or catered to. As a teacher, I find it is the NT children that have come off worst because of this ridiculous notion that schools can be inclusive. Someone always loses.

I don’t think you understand what inclusion means

Absolute rubbish. Provision and curriculum is very much geared to standard and above hence children with SEND needing support.You do realise we’re talking about children with SEND and not all children with SEND are ND.

I’m a veteran teacher (yup, remember teaching in the halcyon days of the 90s) and a big concern has always been how children with behavioural issues -that may stem from an unmet need or not - always seem to take the majority of resources. It’s not just the GnT kids who then suffer but the average kid who needs a quiet room and time with the teacher to learn.

Schools do their very best but the needs in schools now are so huge that it’s an impossible job.

My answer would be to establish more alternative provision schools for those children who have difficulties being in a regular school environment. There should
also be more TAs in every school to support the children who can cope in a mainstream school but need the extra boost (of any level
of ability).

However, this all costs millions that we know the government doesn’t have.

ALL children deserve a good education but I think many do not receive this and that’s a
crime.

It all depends like an extremely aggressive child who isn’t suitable for mainstream is one thing. But I wouldn’t want my child getting more attention at the expense of SEN children in general being othered and pushed out of mainstream. To me that’s just selfish and ridiculous.

Yes, I do. But like a PP said, we have a single pair of hands. Zero additional resources or adults. If a violent or disregulated child takes up my time as the class teacher, realistically what do you think happens?

In mainstream, inclusion means - you deal with it “quality first teaching” will fix everything. It’s not realistic at all. Not fair on SEN children, NT children or staff.

Well said!

I thought the VAT from private school fees was to be pumped into state education, has this not been felt or maybe delivered yet?

Or maybe, just maybe, it was all just a pile of bllx and it won’t materialise and it’s just resulted in yet more pressure on the state system. As predicted. Hmmm

Op what is it your bright, a grieving, neurotypical child isn't getting that other less deserving, in your opinion, children are?

Huh?

inclusion is about allowing children with disabilities to access mainstream.

it used to be the case that if a kid was in a wheelchair or similar they couldn’t go to mainstream no matter how bright they were.

inclusion as it started off was about making sure every child had access to an education.

the vast, vast majority of children who are in mainstream as a result of inclusion are NT but have other disabilities such as Down’s syndrome, cerebral palsy, epilepsy, etc.

many of them are of average or above average ability and previously would have been in special school simply because mainstream wasn’t wheelchair accessible/Deaf friendly etc.

these days teachers can wear microphones that go straight into a kids hearing aid.

I completely agree.

I remember a thread on here a while ago where the OP’s child had been touched inappropriately by another student who had some kind of learning difficulty. Apparently, he had done this to quite a few other students. MN came out in their droves to suggest that the OP should remove her child if she’s worried about her getting touched that way. Almost as if the other kid had more right to be there.

My own DS has someone in his class that regularly acts out, starts throwing things at other pupils and at their teacher. Sometimes, the disruption is that bad they have to move all of the children out of the room and wait for her to calm down.

Thats before we take in to account the various and often competing EHCPs that are supposed to be met. Child A can’t be subjected to unnecessary noise, Child B needs to stim constantly, child C needs to get up and wander around every 5 minutes, everybody needs their work printing on different coloured paper. When do teachers get the time to actually teach?!

most mainstream comprehensives will focus on getting as many children to at least a 5.

for academic children that will get a 7 anyway, they won't be pushed as much.

this is where selective schools, grammar or private, come in as the cohort is more able, there's more competition and greater expectation get the 9s.

not so much to do with NT or not

Perhaps she is miffed her child won’t reach their academic potential because of the lack of resources due to the amount of time effort and focus taken and directed to a handful of children that absolutely should not be in mainstream but due to the way successive governments have stripped back specialist provision, they now monopolise teaching time. It’s not fair on the child with SEN, the other kids or teachers.

My ND child is excelling academically on his own, we're lucky in that he doesn't need support from SEND.

@empee47 all children have different abilities whether they're NT or ND - you may have to accept that yours is academically middling or below, it's not necessarily the fault of anything in place for other children. Of course your school may just be unsupportive in general, but that's nothing to do with inclusion policies or other kids.

I will clarify, I’m NOT talking about the child that needs hearing aids, dyslexia, dyscalculia etc. I’m talking extreme SEND - the non verbal, autistic child, or the violent child that leaves staff bruised and bleeding daily but cannot have any consequence because of “inclusion”.

My DC went to a state primary, state comprehensive school, state sixth form and achieved the highest possible grades. There would have been no advantage in paying for private schools or tutors.

Gah - this again. Many ND kids are also in the top tier academically and struggle more than NT kids with disruptive behaviour. Disruptive behaviour can occur because some ND kids have meltdowns, but it just as easily - and I’d argue more commonly - happens because NT kids are misbehaving.

Do teachers need more support / better policies to prevent disruptive behaviour getting in the way of teaching and learning? Absolutely. Is this universally about those pesky ND kids stealing focus from hardworking gifted NT kids? Not at all.

This debate has been had time and again and it’s run through each time with lazy stereotypes about ND kids and it’s really starting to piss me off. My hardworking, academically gifted, and 100% non-disruptive ND kid has been absolutely terrorized by badly behaved NT kids but I am not on here whinging NT kids shouldn’t be allowed to be in mainstream schools.

We all want better school environments where our kids are supported and can learn and disruptive behaviour is minimised. Can we not focus on that instead of lazily targeting groups of kids who already have enough challenges facing them? What positive thing does a post like this do outside of giving people a chance to feel alright about their prejudices against ND kids? What is it making better for anyone’s kids or for any of the parents on here?

This has nothing inherently to do with inclusion policies or whether a child is NT or ND.

DD is autistic and absolutely sailed through primary school without intervention. Always working at greater depth, "top table", "lead learner" etc. She's now at a grammar where there are plenty of ND girls who I imagine had a similar experience at primary.

Equally I highly doubt that all the less able children at primary were ND. Some kids are late bloomers and some just aren't very bright.

Do I think however that bright children aren't stretched at primary? Yeah, I do. But please don't make it a divisive matter by bringing neurodivergence into it.

Can you give some specific examples of what inclusion policies you disagree with and what it is that you think is lacking? I think there is such a wide range of things, SEND, Neuro diversity, disabilities, behavioural support, well being, different ability levels, all being discussed, covering such a wide range of situations that we need specifics.

To me, inclusion isn't about kids reaching their full potential, that's a parents job, but it is about them being able to access the curriculum that is being provided.

Do you disagree with a school being wheelchair accessible? Can a child with vision issues be given a worksheet in a larger font or sat near the front of the class? What about a child who lost their hearing due to meningitis, can they be given support to catch up with phonics? If a child is severely dyslexic but otherwise academically able can they have support to read a maths worksheet? Is a TA being trained in administering an epi pen a waste of time? If your child broke their arm the day before their GCSE exams would you expect them to be given a scribe?

Nonsense - my DC got 14 x grade 9s in a “good” comprehensive school and 4 x A* + EPQ in a state sixth form. Excellent teachers throughout. Also, high achievers raise the Progress 8 score so there is an incentive to stretch more able pupils.

Andy Burnham went to state schools and looks likely to be the next PM.