Intrusive thoughts DD

[LavateraRose]

Lord above I am out of my depth with DD who is late 11, soon to be 12.
She is having negative intrusive thoughts and I have no clue about how to help her.
She is repeatedly having thoughts that I am fat and ugly and a most horrible mother. She tells me this whilst trembling, crying her heart out, and begging me for forgiveness for having such ''terrible" thoughts about me, all the while telling me that she truly thinks I'm beautiful, not at all fat, and a lovely mother. She gets beyond distressed by these thoughts that I'm fat, ugly and a bad mum, to the point that I worry about her because she goes white with fear and upset.
She is also having continuous thoughts that she did bad things to her friends that she didn't do, and that she said mean things to her friends that she didn't say. The most random things, like for example crying because she thinks she deliberately stuck her foot out to trip a friend over on purpose to deliberately make them fall over and hurt themselves, when in fact all she did was walk past them and didn't trip them up at all. Then she'll torment herself for hours saying that she doesn't know if she did actually trip them up on purpose or not because her thoughts keep telling her she did, so therefore they must be true, even though she didn't, her brain keeps telling her she did, then she gets distressed again and round and round it goes.
She is endlessly crying to me asking "Am I a bad person? Am I a bad person? Am I am I am I?!? I need to know if I'm bad or good!!!!".
I do manage to calm her down with physical comfort and calm rationalisation, she cheers up a bit, then hours later it's all back again.
She is exhausted by these thoughts and I'm watching her get drained and exhausted by it all.
Selfishly, I am absolutely drained and exhausted by it too.
The most straightforward of tasks are getting constantly delayed by hour long diversions whilst I try to console her distress. The amount of time all this attention and comfort she's requiring due to these intrusive thoughts is blocking me from simple daily chores such as making dinner, tidying up, bedtime routines, and it's also blocking me from giving attention to my DS 13.
Interspersed with the crying distress and emotional confessions of non stop intrusive thoughts, she is having episodes multiple times a day of shouting, shreaking, wailing meltdowns about the most insignificant things.
DS is finding it all really difficult to live with as she routinely starts screaming at him for things like eating loudly. To my mind he's just eating normally. To her mind he's eating deliberately loudly like a wild animal (he's not though). Or she screams excessively at him if he walks across the room and momentarily walks in front of the TV when she's watching it.
Her behaviour is all consuming. It is stopping me from giving much needed time and attention to my DS.
Daily bouts of her screaming at me "I HATE YOU I REALLY REALLY HATE YOU", for what I do not know, then an hour later repenting and apologising and beating herself up for being "a bad person" and constantly asking me repeatedly if I still love her. I reasure her thst of course I still love her, I tell her my love for her never ever changes, but this gives her little reassurance.
When I ask her what I did to make her shout she hates me, she doesn't even know.
I can't actually cope with her behaving like this anymore. We've been living like this for months on end, a year probably, and she's getting worse.
She's compulsively handwashing to "wash all my worries away". Her hands are red sore.
GP said get support from school because CAMHS is a 3 year wait. School said go back to GP. GP repeated the advice to go back to school. School have now set her up with seeing a weekly wellbeing practitioner at school who sounds pretty unhelpful from what DD tells me, and she makes suggestions to DD that makes things worse not better. She really doesn't sound skilled in advising DD on these thoughts and behaviours.
Bedtime is taking HOURS every night to get her calm enough to settle. I've recently caught her hitting her own head hard in upset to 'punish' herself for having 'bad' thoughts.
DD has had anxiety for years.
I don't understand why. She's had the most loving, stable, secure, joyful childhood. I have loved her unconditionally and have told her I love her every day of her life. I am a devoted mother, my whole life is dedicated to looking after her the absolute best I can and to give her a lovely, happy and emotionally secure life.
Why has she turned out like this? Why is she an anxious wreck? Nothing has happened in her life to cause this.
I am now at the point where I can feel myself starting to go a bit numb towards her. On a daily basis she is hurting my feelings, taking up every shred of my emotional energy, stopping me from having time to do anything else and she is draining the life out of me with her emotional complexities.
How do I find the strength to carry on coping with this?

I know this will be a very unpopular opinion, but what happens if instead of pandering to her every mood and whim, you don't pander to her attention-seeking behaviour or give her 100% of your time and just tell her to stop her awful behaviour as it affects the whole family very negatively? I understand she may have OCD or another condition as posters on this thread say, but also her behaviour is unacceptable and at the moment it gets rewarded with you giving her all your attention (to the detriment of your poor son). So why should she stop behaving like this when her behaviour gets rewarded?

I think it’s clear that OP and her daughter need professional help @XelaM.
That’s what OP is looking for and what pp have been advising.
Unless you really know what you’re talking about I’d leave it there,

I was wondering if she could be prescribed something to help relax her while waiting to see someone. She sounds like she's in absolute turmoil.

" moods and whims" "attention seeking" "awful behaviour"
Zero understanding of the situation.
Zero empathy.

This child needs psychiatric help and OP needs support.
Thank goodness the vast majority of PP show some understanding of OCD and have given some excellent practical advice.

It might not be but it certainly sounds like it. Reading up on it wouldn't do any harm. It's uncommon for children to develop bipolar disorder.

Maybe we have a child mental health crisis nowadays because so many children are allowed to behave appallingly to their parents and siblings and instead of being told off for it, are rewarded with more and more attention. Instead of being allowed to navel gaze in their rooms, more kids should be kept busy with sport and jobs and other physical activities to tire them out and not allow them to overthink their teenage angst. Just my opinion though. I'm of course no expert.

I’m no expert.

No, that’s clear…disgusting ignorance on display there @XelaM.

I'm so sorry you're going through this OP, I went through similar with my own daughter and it was hands down the most upsetting and stressful thing I've been through (and I've been through some shit). In my daughter's case a series of PSHE classes at school triggered incessant intrusive thoughts which tormented and tortured her during every waking moment. She was 11/12.

She would be begging me to reassure that she wasn't an evil person, sometimes every twenty minutes, sobbing and screaming 'but how do you know I'm not (racist or a pedophile for example)?' Rationally explaining to her why didn't help, she would be reassured for a short time then it would start again.

GP told us CAMHS wouldn't accept anyone unless the child was 'actively suicidal'. I took her to a psychiatrist in the end who said it was an anxiety disorder with OCD traits (pure OCD it was called). There is autism in my family and he said it was extremely common with high functioning autistic children, she did go on to be diagnosed eventually. He prescribed Sertraline and told me that it was very important not to reassure her because that perpetuated it. She had become reliant/addicted to my reassurance but it only fuelled the intrusive thoughts. It felt completely counter-intuitive but I did what he said (so hard) and it worked.

The sertraline was like magic. Literally stopped the torture within days.
Like you I drove myself mad wondering what I'd done wrong to raise such an unhappy child, but it's not about that, honestly it isn't. Her twin sister had none of this and she had exactly the same (perfectly normal) childhood. Good luck. Don't wait for CAMHS, get a loan out like I did and go private asap.

I agree that sports and activity is good for children ( and anyone) but we’re talking terrifying intrusive thoughts in a young child here so it needs a bit more than that.

Have a read up on Pure OCD my husband has it. He’s obsessions center around the idea that he thinks badly of or has done something bad to someone he loves (normally me) he has had it since childhood. He normally has 1 bad episode a year treated with antidepressants and CBT Therapy.

For the less informed, OCD is now classed as a neurobiological condition, which means it is very different to other mental health conditions, such as anxiety. The brain is wired differently which is why the therapy is so intense and the right medication is so helpful. It is one of the most terrifying conditions to have, please don't downplay it if you don't have any experience of it.

Yes @XelaM you probably mean well, but I’d love for you to give me a nice parenting advice when my son is stuck in front of the mirror for 4 hours , absolutely convinced there is something in his eye

Just count your blessings you don’t have to deal with it

thank God for medication and for private docs acting so quickly and making the issue go away

You need to remove the danger of it. Tell her it’s fine … that you’re fat and ugly and a horrible mother. That that’s fine for her to think. Doesn’t bother you, lalalala shall we go get chocolate?

Shes thinking what she believes are the worst thoughts she can have. Show her thoughts are just that and that you don’t care what her intrusive thoughts say and that being fat and ugly wouldn’t be a big deal anyway.

I’m of course no expert

Wow, really? With insights like ‘just make them take up a sport’ and ‘simply tell them not be mentally ill’ I was assuming you were a qualified psychiatrist. 🙄

FWIW, of course you can’t cure a serious mental illness with sport and telling someone off, whether they’re a child or an adult. Don’t be daft.

Yes @XelaM you probably mean well

I mean, it’s possible but I wouldn’t put money on it

This is beyond a mum’s expertise, all the hugs in the world will not unpack your daughters thinking. Don’t wait for Camhs, go private, you do not need £400, most sessions are around £50-£60 an hour, in my experience. My daughter was with Camhs for years, they bounced her around from pillar to post. Nothing that helped. We paid private and within 6 sessions she was significantly improved.

My child was very similar, started in Covid. Her intrusive thoughts were about being a vegetarian and worried that many things contained meat. One day she stepped on a snail and she was inconsolable for hours staying she should be killed. She threw up because she mistakenly ate gelatine sweets. She would not walk on carpets that she thought had lanolin in them. Etc. we got a book called ‘the OCD workbook’ and did this together. She went to therapy for 2 years which we paid for, worth its wait in gold. She’s much better now but I had to find a way of coping with her episodes without exploding. There is light at the end of the tunnel but it takes time- a lot of
time!

Thank you everybody🙏
I feel very grateful to have received all your replies. You have all give me such helpful advice, and from some of you I feel it comes from an extremely heartfelt place.
I'm sorry I am not answering individually. I would like to but I haven't got the brain capacity this evening.
Thank you so much for the insight in to OCD, I didn't know this causes distressing intrusive thoughts. I see now that I didn't really know properly about OCD. I have been reading in to it as much as possible since last night as much as I can around work/mum duties/looking after DD and DS.
I had a 1 hour phone call with CAMHS today. 30 minutes with a triage type person, who put me through to a mental health practitioner who spent another 30 minutes talking to me. Both were being extremely lovely to me and they really listened to me. I am embarrassed to say I was crying with both of them. This is not like me; I am usually able to keep in control of my emotions and I really never cry. But I dissolved into tears on the phone. They said they've referred me/DD to the acute mental health CAMHS team who will contact me within the next 72 hours and I've had an email from them to confirm this.
Where this will lead to I don't know. If it comes to nothing and they say all they can do is put DD on a lengthy waiting list then I go private.
I'm scared of the money involved though....>£500 for an initial Psychiatric assessment followed by ongoing weekly private Psychotherapy/CBT......I can borrow the initial £500 from my overdraft but I don't know how to afford the cost of weekly therapy sessions. I've looked in to local OCD therapists in my area and they're charging £180 per 50 minute session. If CBT is needed for months, how will we afford nearly £800 monthly on therapy? This feels insane.
I am too overwhelmed to take all this in. My brain is very tired and I feel numb, like I can't take in any more strain. I feel like I'm going through a trauma type response. I've got to work all day again tomorrow and I don't know how to get through the day feeling like this.
After a verg diffivult night last night, DD woke up and had another gargantuan meltdown this morning. She ended up 2.5 hours late in to school because it took me all that time to calm her down enough to go in, which in turn made me well over an hour late in to work. I got disciplined. I can't keep masking at work. I'm going to crack soon.

Does she have any diagnosis Op? I know ASD is often poo poohed, and people think it’s over used but the reality is children who are ND are far more likely to suffer with poor mental health. Women/girls with ND are more likely to have PMDD. The world is harder for them to navigate.

@XelaM
I fully disregard your views.

So sorry you are all going through this. Obviously a professional diagnosis is needed to help your daughter and all your family, but as PPs have suggested, these symptoms could be OCD. This is a cruel, tormenting mental health condition which goes way beyond day to day anxiety, and is certainly not an attention seeking choice. It takes a great toll on the quality of life for sufferers and those close to them, but it can be tackled.

Firstly, if it is OCD, it is not your fault. It is a neurological condition - there are plenty of trustworthy sites online which explain the biological basis for the condition. It doesn't matter how good a parent you are. In fact research shows that intrusive thoughts cause such pain, because they target the values dearest to us. So a new mother passionately committed to her child's safety may have intrusive thoughts about hurting their baby, or a daughter who knows her mum loves her and adores her mum, will say the opposite, precisely because this is the worst thought that can come into her head. It is a truly cruel condition. Also the fear of being a bad person is 100% characteristic of OCD, as is the fear of having done/said something bad, when you 100% haven't.

It is good that your daughter has felt able to tell you what her thoughts are about. Many are too ashamed of their thoughts to ask for help, so her ability to talk to you is a testament to your relationship. Although it is exhausting.

Professional help can be very effective. Once you have a diagnosis, make sure you find a practitioner who has the skills and experience to work with the specific condition. Anyone can set up as a counsellor, and you need someone who knows what they are doing. Working with a professional helps relieve the massive pressure you are under as well.

In the meantime, I really recommend 'Overcoming Unwanted Intrusive Thoughts: A CBT-based Guide to Getting Over Frightening, Obsessive or Disturbing Thoughts' by Sally M Wilson and others. It explains what is going on for your daughter, why her thoughts don't mean what she thinks they mean, why she is absolutely not a bad person, and how to work to improve things. (As an aside, I'd recommend you read the book and talk to her about it, as some of the intrusive thoughts discussed would be, as you can imagine, graphic and very troubling to a 11/12 year old.)

It may or may not be OCD, this is the condition I unfortunately know about. But whatever the diagnosis, I wish you all the best.

I have an AuDHD diagnosed child age 12 who has intrusive thoughts and actions that have slowly changed over time. They don't have OCD but they do have Tourettic OCD which is quite differrnt in terms of symptoms and treatments. ADHD meds are what have helped massively not anti anxiety meds. But had to be very careful with which one was used as many make tourettic OCD worse.

We have had CAMHS involvement and private involvement. What i would warn you is that most private assessment companies have tunnel vision. They want you to sign up to for a specific package of e.g. autism assessment or OCD assessment etc. You can get individual assessments done for maybe £500 but it won't help if you have initially chosen the wrong route. Other Psychiatrists will charge by the hour for general appointments but not necessarily do full extensive assessments as these are expensive to implement.

What you really need to find is a Psychiatrist who will consider and screen for a wide range of possible outcomes. But from expeirnce to do that properly is at least £2-4k. So a lot of Psychiatrists will basically just try sertraline and see what happens as it's a much cheaper option. Sometimes it works sometimes it makes things much worse.

It's a horrible situation to be in but getting proper full Psychiatrist assessment is really the best way forward.

@LavateraRoseEMDR therapy worked really well for my DD ( she was 14 ) and her intrusive thoughts. It took just 6 sessions.

Oh OP, I have been exactly where you are. My daughter basically crumbled at the end of Y6 (after years of masking ASD - they absolutely don’t necessarily go hand in hand but there is a strong overlap).

My DD also had the same urges to tell me I was fat, ugly etc. But that distressed her so much. She also had intrusive thoughts about all her family sexually abusing her whilst she slept (even me). Or about thinking she had to go on to the train track. Or animals being abused. Or being secretly recorded. Or checking her phone obsessively thinking she’d sent horrible messages to friends or family. Or that she wasn’t dressed properly. Or that people had seen her naked. It destroyed both her and me. One of the toughest periods in my life for sure (and we’ve dealt with a lot - grief, illness etc).

The NHS were completely useless, so we went private and she’s been on medication (sertraline) for a few years now. It’s been life changing and I’m not exaggerating when I say it’s saved us a family.

@LavateraRose there is a cheaper private route

my consultant charges less and you can have medication same day just after one consultation if situation is bad (sent you details yesterday )

also CAMHS can provide medication immediately if urgent (friends kid was offered both therapy sessions and meds within a week- went through SH)

consider also what @Treebaubles said there might be adhd or ASD masking…. For us it was adhd and a simple adhd medication resolved ocd as well x